One in Heaven, no Trinity - Psalm 73:25

[Jewjitzu]

You are not the arbiter of what Scripture means, Scripture is, and the Hebrew in Genesis 2:24 is explicitly defining the union of a man and woman in marriage, and that the two become 'one flesh'

They become one flesh in a child. It's basic biology. That's the union.

 

[Jewjitzu]

Find me a Hebrew scholar that states 'Elohim' is not a plural noun

Morphologically elohim is a plural noun. However the meaning is determined based on context. This is no different than in English where certain words can be either singular or plural based on context. Examples are fish, sheep, lamb.

Post in thread 'Thief on the cross - forgiven how?' https://forums.carm.org/threads/thief-on-the-cross-forgiven-how.4749/post-734554

Since you asked for a scholarship, here's a link to a post I had with another person who made the same mistake as you.

The rules of Hebrew grammar require that the verb must agree with the noun in both gender and number.

You think? Rotfl... And in the verses you've quoted the verb is singular.

You have to ask yourself, why did God inspire Moses to write this way?

See above.

 

[Jewjitzu]

Psalm 2:1-7
1 Why are the nations in an uproar And the peoples devising a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth take their stand And the rulers take counsel together Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying,
3 "Let us tear their fetters apart And cast away their cords from us!"
4 He who sits in the heavens laughs, The Lord scoffs at them.
5 Then He will speak to them in His anger And terrify them in His fury, saying,
6 "But as for Me, I have installed My King Upon Zion, My holy mountain."
7 "I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.


Psalm 2 declares that Yahweh has a begotten Son, meaning they both have the same nature

I love it how you make up garbage as you go along. First off, the Gentiles of the world fight against the anointed one, messiah. Second, begotten comes from the Hebrew yulad, to be born. Something that is born today, doesn't have the same essence. So, your idea is debunked.

The LORD'S Anointed (Messiah) is His Son, and His Son is the King of Israel

And such was David. Psalm 89.

In Genesis 19:24 you have two personages, both with the name of 'Yahweh'

It doesn't say two. God shares His name with no one.

Psalm 2 reveals a plurality within the 'Oneness' of God (Just like the plurality within the 'one flesh' of Genesis 2:24)

Well, this was debunked.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

And if you were, you'd admit you've made mistakes in this forum and aren't guided by the HS. Just man-up.

Yes I have made many mistakes but not yet on this forum.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Psalm 2:1-7
1 Why are the nations in an uproar And the peoples devising a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth take their stand And the rulers take counsel together Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying,
3 "Let us tear their fetters apart And cast away their cords from us!"
4 He who sits in the heavens laughs, The Lord scoffs at them.
5 Then He will speak to them in His anger And terrify them in His fury, saying,
6 "But as for Me, I have installed My King Upon Zion, My holy mountain."
7 "I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.


Psalm 2 declares that Yahweh has a begotten Son, meaning they both have the same nature

The LORD'S Anointed (Messiah) is His Son, and His Son is the King of Israel

In Genesis 19:24 you have two personages, both with the name of 'Yahweh'


Psalm 2 reveals a plurality within the 'Oneness' of God (Just like the plurality within the 'one flesh' of Genesis 2:24)



RCM

The scales are still in their eyes. Their hearts need to be circumsized.Only then will they be able to see and understand that Yeshua is the Messiah.

 

[Fred]

The scales are still in their eyes. Their hearts need to be circumsized.Only then will they be able to see and understand that Yeshua is the Messiah.

2 Corinthians 3:15-16

 

[Jewjitzu]

Yes I have made many mistakes but not yet on this forum.

Of course you've made mistakes here. You messed up with the Abrahamic blessings instead of Priestly blessings, betrothal being legally married, etc.

Being deceitful about it isn't a fruit of the spirit.

 

[Jewjitzu]

The scales are still in their eyes. Their hearts need to be circumsized.Only then will they be able to see and understand that Yeshua is the Messiah.

Rotfl... well, I can see well enough that Jesus has two knees and a tongue and will bow in the future

 

[RCM]

They become one flesh in a child. It's basic biology. That's the union.

Again, You are not the arbiter of how Scripture should be interpreted, Scripture is, and the Hebrew in Genesis 2:24 is explicitly defining the union of a man and woman in the covenant of marriage, and that the two become 'one flesh'

Your response is not Biblical and completely unacceptable!


Apparently, you need the greater context for clarification,

Genesis 2:18-24
18 Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him."
19 Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.
20 The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every beast of the field, but for Adam there was not found a helper suitable for him.
21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place.
22 The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man.
23 The man said, "This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man."
24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.


God handed the bride to Adam and God takes serious the supernatural and spiritual union of the marriage covenant, (Malachi 2:13-16)

'Echad' definitely illustrates a plurality within a singular entity, oneness but not sameness, unity and diversity


Furthermore, God's statement here is representative of all humanity, and down through the ages there have been a great multitude of God fearing marriages who were never able to have children, which exposes your interpretation and response to be in error!



RCM

 

[Jewjitzu]

Again, You are not the arbiter of how Scripture should be interpreted,

Neither are you.

Scripture is, and the Hebrew in Genesis 2:24 is explicitly defining the union of a man and woman in the covenant of marriage, and that the two become 'one flesh'

The union is established in a child who is forever more a union of their flesh.

Your response is not Biblical and completely unacceptable!

Actually, it blows your understanding away.

Apparently, you need the greater context for clarification,

Rotfl... okay, let's see.

Genesis 2:18-24
18 Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him."
19 Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.
20 The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every beast of the field, but for Adam there was not found a helper suitable for him.
21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place.
22 The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man.
23 The man said, "This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man."
24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.

Adam and eve were already one flesh to begin with. So, future unions of man and wife produce one flesh in their children.

God handed the bride to Adam and God takes serious the supernatural and spiritual union of the marriage covenant, (Malachi 2:13-16)

This doesn't help your point.

'Echad' definitely illustrates a plurality within a singular entity, oneness but not sameness, unity and diversity

Man and wife aren't a single entity. Again, your idea of echad doesn't pertain to God.

Check out this post, Post in thread 'Thief on the cross - forgiven how?' https://forums.carm.org/threads/thief-on-the-cross-forgiven-how.4749/post-734554

Furthermore, God's statement here is representative of all humanity, and down through the ages there have been a great multitude of God fearing marriages who were never able to have children, which exposes your interpretation and response to be in error!

Then they were never one flesh physically. If you're thinking sexually, emotionally, spiritual, ie, one heart, mind, and soul, that's fine.

 

[RCM]

Morphologically elohim is a plural noun. However the meaning is determined based on context. This is no different than in English where certain words can be either singular or plural based on context. Examples are fish, sheep, lamb.

You think? Rotfl... And in the verses you've quoted the verb is singular.

I know the verb is singular, that is why I referenced the rules of Hebrew grammar, which require that the verb must agree with the noun in both gender and number, because Moses does this, it has great significance of theological meaning

The 'Yahweh Elohim' description of God is used thousands of times in the Old Testament Scriptures, such as Deuteronomy 6:4

Deuteronomy 6:4 HEAR, O ISRAEL: THE LORD OUR GOD, THE LORD IS ONE.

The verb and Yahweh are singular, but Elohim is plural, which further clarifies and informs the understanding of the plural triune complexity (Father, Son, Spirit of God) of the 'Oneness' of God (just like the one flesh of a husband and wife!)


Isaiah echos this theology in Isaiah 6:3, "And one called out to another and said, "Holy, Holy, Holy, is the LORD of hosts, The whole earth is full of His glory."



RCM

 

[Jewjitzu]

I know the verb is singular, that is why I referenced the rules of Hebrew grammar, which require that the verb must agree with the noun in both gender and number, because Moses does this, it has great significance of theological meaning

So far, no issues with what you've said.

The 'Yahweh Elohim' description of God is used thousands of times in the Old Testament Scriptures, such as Deuteronomy 6:4

YWHW is a singular proper name which clarifies the context, understanding of elo-him in the same way a verb disambiguates.

Deuteronomy 6:4 HEAR, O ISRAEL: THE LORD OUR GOD, THE LORD IS ONE.

Yep, please notice that no one translates this as The Lords our Gods. That would destroy the trinity testimony of one God.

The verb and Yahweh are singular, but Elohim is plural, which further clarifies and informs the understanding of the plural triune complexity (Father, Son, Spirit of God) of the 'Oneness' of God (just like the one flesh of a husband and wife!)

Which proves my point that the term elohim in this context is singular in understanding as are the words sheep, fish, lamb, in certain context.

Isaiah echos this theology in Isaiah 6:3, "And one called out to another and said, "Holy, Holy, Holy, is the LORD of hosts, The whole earth is full of His glory."

This doesn't help you.

 

[RCM]

begotten comes from the Hebrew yulad, to be born. Something that is born today, doesn't have the same essence. So, your idea is debunked.

Do you understand the difference between 'begotten' and 'created'?

Begotten is of the same nature, if you beget children, they are of the same nature as you

Created is something other, anything you create is something other than you,


Psalm 2 clearly states that God has a begotten Son

This begotten Son is the Anointed One, or Messiah

This begotten Son is the King of Israel


David does not qualify


Question, are you saying God does not have a begotten Son?




RCM

 

[Jewjitzu]

Do you understand the difference between 'begotten' and 'created'?

Sure do. Begotten, from yulad, is generated or born at some point in time, not before. Created doesn't exist before.

Begotten is of the same nature, if you beget children, they are of the same nature as you

Not always, https://biblehub.com/text/deuteronomy/32-18.htm.

Israel is begotten.

Created is something other, anything you create is something other than you,

See above.

Psalm 2 clearly states that God has a begotten Son

Like David.

This begotten Son is the Anointed One, or Messiah

This begotten Son is the King of Israel

David does not qualify

Question, are you saying God does not have a begotten Son?

Israel, as shown above, is shown as begotten.

 

[RCM]

Neither are you.


The union is established in a child who is forever more a union of their flesh.


Actually, it blows your understanding away.


Rotfl... okay, let's see.


Adam and eve were already one flesh to begin with. So, future unions of man and wife produce one flesh in their children.


This doesn't help your point.


Man and wife aren't a single entity. Again, your idea of echad doesn't pertain to God.

Check out this post, Post in thread 'Thief on the cross - forgiven how?' https://forums.carm.org/threads/thief-on-the-cross-forgiven-how.4749/post-734554


Then they were never one flesh physically. If you're thinking sexually, emotionally, spiritual, ie, one heart, mind, and soul, that's fine.

Everything you have stated here is mindless blather!

It is obvious that you know you are evading truth!

RCM

 

[Jewjitzu]

Everything you have stated here is mindless blather!

It is obvious that you know you are evading truth!

RCM

You don't have to accept it.

Here's Dr. Heiser's words again, from Logos Bible software.

Again, context determines the meaning of words and Elo-him is definitely singular in Genesis 1:26-27. Have you heard of Dr. Michael Heiser from Logos bible software? Check out what he has to say about the morphology of elohim and how context determines the meaning.

...
As noted above, elohim is morphologically plural. Morphology refers to the "shape" or construction of a word - its form. As far as meaning, though, elohim can be either singular or plural depending on context. As anyone who has taken a language can testify, meaning is determined by context, not by a list of glosses in a dictionary (which are only OPTIONS – the translator must look to context for accuracy).
More specifically, the meaning of any occurrence of elohim must be discerned in three ways:

A. Grammatical indications elsewhere in the text that help to determine if a singular or plural meaning is meant.
B. Grammatical rules in Hebrew that are true in the language as a whole.
C. Historical / Logical context.

To illustrate, consider words in English such as:
"deer", "sheep", "fish" - the point is you need other words to help you tell if one or more than one of these animals is meant. Sometimes these other words are verbs that help you tell. Compare the two examples::

1) "The sheep is lost" - the word "is" is a singular verb (It goes with a singular subject; one wouldn't say, for example, "I are lost" - you would use a verb that goes with the singular subject ("I am lost").

2) "The sheep are lost" - the word "are" is a plural verb (again, another word next to our noun "sheep" tells us in this case that plural sheep are meant.

All of this is just basic grammar - and every language has grammar. Biblical Hebrew has its own ways of telling us if elohim means ONE person or many gods. It matches the noun elohim to singular or plural verbs, or with singular or plural pronouns (to use "sheep" again as an example:
"Those sheep are white"). The word "those" is what's called a demonstrative pronoun - it automatically tells us that sheep in this sentence is meant to be understood as a plural.

 

[Caroljeen]

Sorry, you don't have much of a defense when he'll be kneeling as well.

All knees will bow and tongues confess. He's included, much to your chagrin.

Jesus will be sitting on the throne of God. He won't be bowing to himself. Everyone else with knees will be bowing to Jesus who is seated on the throne of God.

 

[Caroljeen]

You don't have to accept it.

Here's Dr. Heiser's words again, from Logos Bible software.

Again, context determines the meaning of words and Elo-him is definitely singular in Genesis 1:26-27. Have you heard of Dr. Michael Heiser from Logos bible software? Check out what he has to say about the morphology of elohim and how context determines the meaning.

...
As noted above, elohim is morphologically plural. Morphology refers to the "shape" or construction of a word - its form. As far as meaning, though, elohim can be either singular or plural depending on context. As anyone who has taken a language can testify, meaning is determined by context, not by a list of glosses in a dictionary (which are only OPTIONS – the translator must look to context for accuracy).
More specifically, the meaning of any occurrence of elohim must be discerned in three ways:

A. Grammatical indications elsewhere in the text that help to determine if a singular or plural meaning is meant.
B. Grammatical rules in Hebrew that are true in the language as a whole.
C. Historical / Logical context.

To illustrate, consider words in English such as:
"deer", "sheep", "fish" - the point is you need other words to help you tell if one or more than one of these animals is meant. Sometimes these other words are verbs that help you tell. Compare the two examples::

1) "The sheep is lost" - the word "is" is a singular verb (It goes with a singular subject; one wouldn't say, for example, "I are lost" - you would use a verb that goes with the singular subject ("I am lost").

2) "The sheep are lost" - the word "are" is a plural verb (again, another word next to our noun "sheep" tells us in this case that plural sheep are meant.

All of this is just basic grammar - and every language has grammar. Biblical Hebrew has its own ways of telling us if elohim means ONE person or many gods. It matches the noun elohim to singular or plural verbs, or with singular or plural pronouns (to use "sheep" again as an example:
"Those sheep are white"). The word "those" is what's called a demonstrative pronoun - it automatically tells us that sheep in this sentence is meant to be understood as a plural.

Would you provide a link, please?

 

[Jewjitzu]

Jesus will be sitting on the throne of God. He won't be bowing to himself.

But Jesus has knees himself and must now to God. He already did in Gethsemane.

Everyone else with knees will be bowing to Jesus who is seated on the throne of God.

Let's just say for the sake of argument people bow to Jesus. As a king, this no different than what people have done to all previous kings of Israel. No worship involved. As well, all kings of Israel bowed to God themselves.

 

[Jewjitzu]

Would you provide a link, please?

Sure.

Elohim

Click on the link for elohim and search the videos and papers.