Proof of the Trinity.

Tanachreader said:
Ya Gota stop watching the Addams family
Cousin Itt is the cousin of Gomez Addams.
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1 John 1:2

New International Version
The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.

English Standard Version
the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us—

Berean Standard Bible
And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.

King James Bible
(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

Amplified Bible
and the Life [an aspect of His being] was manifested, and we have seen [it as eyewitnesses] and testify and declare to you [the Life], the eternal Life who was [already existing] with the Father and was [actually] made visible to us [His followers]—

Christian Standard Bible
that life was revealed, and we have seen it and we testify and declare to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us —

Holman Christian Standard Bible
that life was revealed, and we have seen it and we testify and declare to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us—

Contemporary English Version
The one who gives life appeared! We saw it happen, and we are witnesses to what we have seen. Now we are telling you about this eternal life that was with the Father and appeared to us.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
This life was revealed to us. We have seen it, and we testify about it. We are reporting to you about this eternal life that was in the presence of the Father and was revealed to us.

Good News Translation
When this life became visible, we saw it; so we speak of it and tell you about the eternal life which was with the Father and was made known to us.

International Standard Version
This life was revealed to us, and we have seen it and testify about it. We declare to you this eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.

Majority Standard Bible
And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.

New American Bible
for the life was made visible; we have seen it and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made visible to us—

New Revised Standard Version
this life was revealed, and we have seen it and testify to it, and declare to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us—

Webster's Bible Translation
(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and testify, and show to you that eternal life which was with the Father, and was manifested to us;)
 
Runningman said:
1 John 1:2

New International Version
The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.

English Standard Version
the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us—

Berean Standard Bible
And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.

King James Bible
(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

Amplified Bible
and the Life [an aspect of His being] was manifested, and we have seen [it as eyewitnesses] and testify and declare to you [the Life], the eternal Life who was [already existing] with the Father and was [actually] made visible to us [His followers]—

Christian Standard Bible
that life was revealed, and we have seen it and we testify and declare to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us —

Holman Christian Standard Bible
that life was revealed, and we have seen it and we testify and declare to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us—

Contemporary English Version
The one who gives life appeared! We saw it happen, and we are witnesses to what we have seen. Now we are telling you about this eternal life that was with the Father and appeared to us.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
This life was revealed to us. We have seen it, and we testify about it. We are reporting to you about this eternal life that was in the presence of the Father and was revealed to us.

Good News Translation
When this life became visible, we saw it; so we speak of it and tell you about the eternal life which was with the Father and was made known to us.

International Standard Version
This life was revealed to us, and we have seen it and testify about it. We declare to you this eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.

Majority Standard Bible
And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.

New American Bible
for the life was made visible; we have seen it and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made visible to us—

New Revised Standard Version
this life was revealed, and we have seen it and testify to it, and declare to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us—

Webster's Bible Translation
(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and testify, and show to you that eternal life which was with the Father, and was manifested to us;)
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So is the life an “it” when Jesus Himself say’s
He is the light.

John 14:6 (KJV)
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


John 8:12 (KJV)
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
 
Tanachreader said:
So is the life an “it” when Jesus Himself say’s
He is the light.

John 14:6 (KJV)
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


John 8:12 (KJV)
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
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No. God's logos (His will, plan, and purposes) is an "it."
Jesus Christ is a "he," a man. God's logos became flesh when God miraculously caused Mary to conceive. God's plan came into fruition.
 
Gary Mac said:
Read these passaages again. You only call Jesus a liar is all.

John 12:49 KJV: For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

John 7:16. Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

John 5 :17 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

John 5:19. “Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.”
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Yeah, Jesus is telling them that the doctrine he teaches does not come from anyone other than God. Jesus can't teach any other doctrine than God's doctrine because Jesus is God in the flesh. If Jesus could teach a different doctrine than God's doctrine, then he would prove to be a liar and not God.

It's impossible for the Son of God (Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, etc) to do anything from a selfish flesh nature because God's Spirit is stronger than the flesh, as John 5:19 states. Plus, Jesus is responding to the Jews seeking to kill him because he calls God His Father, making himself equal to God.

‭‭John‬ ‭5:18‬
[18] This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God."

This is what it means to be called the Son of God. You make yourself equal to God. It's right there in the Scriptures. The Son of God is claiming to be equal to God, not less than God or kinda like God, but equal in every way to God. Being the Son of God is to claim to be God.
 
shroom said:
Jesus Christ is not "God in the flesh." He is God's human Messiah.


If you think Jesus Christ is God, you do not understand who God is.


Agreed.


No. The fullness of God was IN Christ.


That attribute applies to both God and the Lord Jesus Christ.


John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.


Jesus represented God perfectly, but Jesus is not the "everlasting Father." God is (John 17:3). Even Trinitarians do not believe Jesus is the Father. In Isaiah 9:6, "everlasting Father" is better translated as "father of the coming age."


YHWH is the "great I AM," not Jesus Christ. There is no reason to associate John 8:58 with Exodus 3:14. When Jesus said "ego eimi," he was simply identifying himself as the Messiah that was promised before Abraham.


ok.


According to Jesus, he is a man who learned FROM God (John 8:40) and his Father is "the only true God" (John 17:3).
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I'm glad you brought up these passages. Let's first delve into John 14:10 and read the whole context of the passage:

‭‭John‬ ‭14:8‭-‬11‬ ‭ESV‬‬
[8] Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” [9] Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? [10] Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. [11] Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves."

Philip wants Jesus to show them the Father. Jesus shows that Philip does not understand who He is yet. "You still don't know me..."

Then Jesus continues to say that those who see him also sees the Father. Why is this?

Jesus answers it in verse 10. He is in the Father and the Father is in Him.

Do you know what this means?

It's exactly what Isaiah 9:6 states,

‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭9:6‬ ‭
[6] For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

The Son to be born shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Why is the Son of God called this?

Because the Son of God is God. The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father. They are One. They are One God.

So, there can't be any other words that Jesus can speak other than the Father's words. Why? If Jesus could speak other words than the Father, then it would prove the Father is not in Him and that He is not God.

However, since Jesus can only speak the words of the Father, He proves to be God. Why? Because the Father is in Him and He is in the Father.

You cannot separate God and God still be God. You cannot separate the Son from the Father. This is why the Son of God will also be called Everlasting Father because the Father is in Him and He is in the Father. They are One. They are two person's of the one God.
 
Neo said:
Because the Son of God is God.
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Not if what Jesus said is true, that he was a man (John 8:40), and that his Father is "the only true God" (John 17:3).

Most of the rest of your post is Trinitarian "reasoning," and I don't agree.
 
johnny guitar said:
NO version I am familiar with identifies The Word as it in 1 John.
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Are you familiar with this version?

King James Bible
(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
 
shroom said:
No. God's logos (His will, plan, and purposes) is an "it."
Jesus Christ is a "he," a man. God's logos became flesh when God miraculously caused Mary to conceive. God's plan came into fruition.
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Perfect. I have nothing to add to that.
 
shroom said:
Not if what Jesus said is true, that he was a man (John 8:40), and that his Father is "the only true God" (John 17:3).

Most of the rest of your post is Trinitarian "reasoning," and I don't agree.
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Yeah, you reject what I say because you reject what the Scriptures state. I merely restated what the passages say.

Do you believe the Father is in the Son?

Do you believe the Son is in the Father?
 
Neo said:
Yeah, you reject what I say because you reject what the Scriptures state. I merely restated what the passages say.
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No, I reject your understanding of what the scriptures state.

Neo said:
Do you believe the Father is in the Son?

Do you believe the Son is in the Father?
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Yes. Christians are in Christ and Christ is in Christians. That does not mean we are Christ.
 
shroom said:
No, I reject your understanding of what the scriptures state.


Yes. Christians are in Christ and Christ is in Christians. That does not mean we are Christ.
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To make this point better understood, we need to yet again revisit Isaiah:

‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭9:6‬ ‭ESV‬‬
[6] For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

You state that it is not "Everlasting Father", but "father of the coming age."

I don't see this in the Hebrew translation. Where are you getting this information?
 
shroom said:
https://www.revisedenglishversion.com/Isaiah/9/6
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Sorry for any delayed responses. I have a pretty busy life. I read through the link you posted. Then I compared what was said by other scholars. Here is what I found:

"The word "Everlasting Father," or "Father of Eternity," is applied to Messiah as the Revealer of God to men. That the passage can only refer to Messiah is agreed by all devout students."
R. Tuck

"He is "the Everlasting Father," or, "the Father of Eternity." The emphasis of this appellation is not on the word "father," but on the word "eternity." It was customary among those who spoke and wrote the Hebrew language, to call a person who possessed a thing, the "father" of it: hence, a strong man was called "the father of strength"; a wise man, "the father of wisdom'"; a wealthy man, "the father of riches"; and so on. Now, the phrase, "the Father of Eternity," seems to be here applied to Christ in a similar way — He possessed eternity, and, therefore, He is called the Father of it. It is a Hebraism of great poetic strength and beauty, employed to express duration — the duration of His being — the essential eternity of His existence past and future — and, perhaps, there could not be a more emphatic declaration of His right to this wonderful attribute of the Deity, strict, proper, and independent eternity of being."
W. Gregory

"The Hebrew word translated “everlasting” has the idea of “in perpetuity” or “without end.” Indeed, the next verse says of the Messiah, “Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end” (Isaiah 9:7). The emphasis is forward looking, so “everlasting” is probably a better translation than “eternal,” which not only indicates “without end” but also “without beginning.” (Again, from the New Testament we may argue that the Messiah is without beginning, but that is not the emphasis of this term in Isaiah.)
So, as the Everlasting Father, the Messiah will be a father, and His fatherhood will be without end....Many rulers in ancient times were considered “father of the country.” Americans who read this term might immediately think of George Washington who is called “the father of his country.” It was Washington’s determination and leadership that led to victory in the Revolutionary War and his support of a strong national government that led (at least in part) to ratification of the U.S. Constitution. Without Washington, the United States might not exist today, or it might exist with a far different form of government. However, if some of the interpretations discussed so far are guilty of reading New Testament theological concerns into Isaiah in an anachronistic fashion, using George Washington as an interpretive clue to the meaning of the phrase is also anachronistic. The most appropriate analogy is far more universal.

In ancient times, the “father of the nation” was viewed in much the same way as the father of a family. It was the father who was to protect and provide for his children. In the same way, this Child to be born will become a king who will be a father to the children of Israel—He will protect and provide for them. And His role as protector and provider will not be limited by aging or death. His role as father (protector and provider) will continue in perpetuity."
https://www.gotquestions.org/Everlasting-Father.html

"אֲבִיעַ֖ד (ab-i-ad) is more exactly translated literally not as "Father of eternity", but "Father who is attributed with eternity"; that is the most probable answer to why Everlasting/Eternal Father is the more common translation, as it is more close to the original meaning as literal translations often err on the side of fully-fleshed out meaning."
Phil A.

ad: perpetuity
Original Word: עַד
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: ad
Phonetic Spelling: (ad)
Definition: perpetuity
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from adah
Definition
perpetuity
NASB Translation
all (1), continually (1), Eternal (1), ever (15), forever (26), forever* (1), forevermore* (2), old (1), perpetual (1).
Strong's Exhastive Concordance

With these understandings, let's examine Isaiah again:

‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭9:6‬ ‭
[6] For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

If we use the scholars interpretation from the original Hebrew language and culture we get the following:

Isaiah‬ ‭9:6‬ ‭
[6] For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, [Father Who is Attributed with Eternity] Prince of Peace."

Or

Isaiah‬ ‭9:6‬ ‭
[6] For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, [Whose Fatherhood Will be Without End], Prince of Peace."

Or

Isaiah‬ ‭9:6‬ ‭
[6] For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, [Father of Eternity], Prince of Peace."

It is clear the scholars agree that the description is about the name of the Son (the Son of God/Jesus Christ). They also agree that the phrase "Everlasting Father" is referring to the Messiah. The understanding is that it is yet another description for the Messiah that means the Father of Eternity, or He will be a Father (Shepherd) of His people for eternity or the Father (creator) of Eternity, or Father who is Attributed with Eternity.

All of these are good descriptions of Jesus. The best understanding seems to be the Father of Eternity or the Father [of His Followers Salvation] for Eternity.
 
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Neo said:
Sorry for any delayed responses. I have a pretty busy life.
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No problem.

Neo said:
All of these are good descriptions of Jesus.
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Most scholars are Trinitarian, so they will have a Trinitarian understanding of that verse.

Neo said:
The best one seems to be the Father of His people for eternity.
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Noplace in the Bible is Jesus Christ called "the Father of His people for eternity." Jesus Christ is not our "father." God is (John 17:3; Rom 1:7; 1 Cor 1:3; 2 Cor 1:2; Gal 1:1; more. Jesus Christ is the head of the body, he is not ashamed to call us brothers (not sons).
 
shroom said:
No problem.


Most scholars are Trinitarian, so they will have a Trinitarian understanding of that verse.


Noplace in the Bible is Jesus Christ called "the Father of His people for eternity." Jesus Christ is not our "father." God is (John 17:3; Rom 1:7; 1 Cor 1:3; 2 Cor 1:2; Gal 1:1; more. Jesus Christ is the head of the body, he is not ashamed to call us brothers (not sons).
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If you read what was said, Jesus the Christ is the father of eternal life (Father of Eternity).

Who is the Savior through whom eternal life is given?
 
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Neo said:
If you read what was said, Jesus the Christ is the father of our eternal salvation.
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That's not a biblical phrase. Jesus is referred to as the captain of our salvation.

Neo said:
Who is our Savior?
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Ultimately, God. God's plan of salvation was carried out by the Lord Jesus Christ. It is through Jesus Christ that anyone will be saved.
 
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