RC UNITY

[balshan]

Once again----purposely misrepresenting my posts.

Heretics have no credibility.

Thanks that means your institution has no credibility.

 

[David1701]

We don't claim an authoritative Church takes away dissent. The claim is that it takes away justification for dissent--which means those who dissent have no credibility. In Protestantism, there is no such mechanism.

The disunity does not exist in this case becasue the pope is teaching the Faith, but precisely becasue his teachings are causing mass confusion about the Faith and allowing heresy and dissent to flourish. In other words--the pope is negligent. Where have we seen this in history before? With Pope Honorius. Francis, is, in effect, a modern day Honorius.

Those who believe the Faith have been highly critical of Francis's disastrous Declaration, going so far as to refuse to implement it. Rightly so.

Pope Francis in the Declaration does not see himself as changing Church teaching on homosexuality or gay unions. He sees himself as extending an olive branch to those in gay unions wanting them to feel welcome in the Church. ...

So, Pope Francis sees nothing wrong with blessing unrepentant, practising sodomite couples (or lesbian couples). Since when has "extending an olive branch" been the holy, loving response to unrepentant sinners, who are practising abominable wickedness?

The correct response is to show them their sin, tell them about God's command to repent, warn them about God's judgment and hell if they don't repent, then tell them that there is forgiveness and wholeness, through faith in Jesus Christ, because he shed his blood and died on the cross, as the propitiation for sinners, then rose from the dead.

 

[romishpopishorganist]

So, Pope Francis sees nothing wrong with blessing unrepentant, practicing sodomite couples (or lesbian couples).

Yes, he does. The blessing is for the individuals, not the couple. That said--I agree that such an explanation is splitting hairs. At best the distinction is theoretical. Whatever the pope's intentions the fact is that gay people see it as a blessing for their relationship.

Since when has "extending an olive branch" been the holy, loving response to unrepentant sinners, who are practicing abominable wickedness?

Here is the thing: whether you "Mirror, mirror, on the wall, who is the most biblical of all" types like it or not, when you say "Homosexuality is an abomination to God" what the person hears is "I am an abomination to God. God hates me."

So the question is--what are you people interested in? Are you interested in converting minds and hearts to Christ, or are you just interested in being right? If all you want to be is right---keep on with your "Homosexuality is an abomination to God. The Bible says convert or go to Hell." Other Bible Christians can give you likes and you can congratulate each other on being the greatest Bible Christians ever.

I agree that Pope Francis's Declaration may not be the most prudent thing to do. That said, at least I give the pope credit for trying to find ways to reach gay people in gay relationships. Before someone is convinced that they need to repent, they first have to understand that God loves them. If they think God hates them, how does that make them want to convert? If I thought God hated me, why would I want anything to do with Him?

The correct response is to show them their sin, tell them about God's command to repent, warn them about God's judgment and hell if they don't repent, then tell them that there is forgiveness and wholeness, through faith in Jesus Christ, because he shed his blood and died on the cross, as the propitiation for sinners, then rose from the dead.

Yep----that would make me want to repent!

 

[romishpopishorganist]

10 words, no substance. You said those who dissent have no credibility. So if one "dissents" because he thinks something is incorrect, your answer is to just say "heretic" and call it a day.

Lazy apologetics, at best.

Or an apologist who doesn't want to waste time with hearts that are closed.

 

[balshan]

Or an apologist who doesn't want to waste time with hearts that are closed.

That is just an excuse for failure to answer questions or respond to a post. Hearts who see the flaws in your posts are not closed to God, but closed to your poor response. You keep blaming others for your inabilities to supply a valid response.

ALL non RCs could say the same about RCs. Apply what you said

Or an apologist who doesn't want to waste time with hearts that are closed.

to RCs. I wouldn't call you an apologist but you are entitled to your opinion.

 

[David1701]

Yes, he does. The blessing is for the individuals, not the couple. That said--I agree that such an explanation is splitting hairs. At best the distinction is theoretical. Whatever the pope's intentions the fact is that gay people see it as a blessing for their relationship.

Here is the thing: whether you "Mirror, mirror, on the wall, who is the most biblical of all" types like it or not, when you say "Homosexuality is an abomination to God" what the person hears is "I am an abomination to God. God hates me."

So the question is--what are you people interested in? Are you interested in converting minds and hearts to Christ, or are you just interested in being right? If all you want to be is right---keep on with your "Homosexuality is an abomination to God. The Bible says convert or go to Hell." Other Bible Christians can give you likes and you can congratulate each other on being the greatest Bible Christians ever.

I agree that Pope Francis's Declaration may not be the most prudent thing to do. That said, at least I give the pope credit for trying to find ways to reach gay people in gay relationships. Before someone is convinced that they need to repent, they first have to understand that God loves them. If they think God hates them, how does that make them want to convert? If I thought God hated me, why would I want anything to do with Him?

Yep----that would make me want to repent!

The way to reach people is to obey what the Lord says - preach the gospel, not bless people in their wickedness.

By the way, we are not supposed to be trying to make people want to repent, that's God's job. We are supposed to be telling them their condition (guilty sinners, under condemnation) and the way out of that condition (the gospel).

 

[leonard03782]

Yes, he does. The blessing is for the individuals, not the couple. That said--I agree that such an explanation is splitting hairs. At best the distinction is theoretical. Whatever the pope's intentions the fact is that gay people see it as a blessing for their relationship.

Here is the thing: whether you "Mirror, mirror, on the wall, who is the most biblical of all" types like it or not, when you say "Homosexuality is an abomination to God" what the person hears is "I am an abomination to God. God hates me."

So the question is--what are you people interested in? Are you interested in converting minds and hearts to Christ, or are you just interested in being right? If all you want to be is right---keep on with your "Homosexuality is an abomination to God. The Bible says convert or go to Hell." Other Bible Christians can give you likes and you can congratulate each other on being the greatest Bible Christians ever.

I agree that Pope Francis's Declaration may not be the most prudent thing to do. That said, at least I give the pope credit for trying to find ways to reach gay people in gay relationships. Before someone is convinced that they need to repent, they first have to understand that God loves them. If they think God hates them, how does that make them want to convert? If I thought God hated me, why would I want anything to do with Him?

Yep----that would make me want to repent!

Converting minds and hearts to GOD does NOT include affirming their sins by saying that it is OK to continue committing those sins. Sometimes, the best way is direct and to the point, which obviously PO's you and other rc's off to no end. Telling sinners that GOD loves them without telling them the truth of their sins affirms their sins.

 

[balshan]

Jesus never said come here I will bless you even though you are sinning. He told them the truth.

 

[leonard03782]

Jesus never said come here I will bless you even though you are sinning. He told them the truth.

What did Jesus tell the woman "caught" in adultery? GO AND SIN NO MORE.

 

[romishpopishorganist]

Converting minds and hearts to GOD does NOT include affirming their sins by saying that it is OK to continue committing those sins.

Where in my post did I say that we should affirm sin? Did I say that?

Such is I think, the reason people like me are resistant to Pope Francis's Declaration. The pope does not intend with the Declaration to bless and condone sin, but notwithstanding the clarifications and explanations, the appearance is that sin is being blessed and condoned.

So I agree with you. We do not convert minds and hearts to God by condoning sin.

What I said was that--if you "More biblical than thou" types--if all you want is to be right--go right ahead with your Bible thumping.

If, on the other hand, you want to convert minds and hearts, the person you are attempting to win over--has to understand that God loves them. Bible Thumping is not going to win over anyone. I can tell you that if I did not believe in Christ as savior, Bible Thumping would not make me want to believe in Christ.

Consider: it is like the people who show up at abortion clinics dressed up as death or satan, and then shout at the women going in "You are a baby killer! You are going to Hell! God will get you!" Is that going to make a woman want to choose life? Is that going to convert anyone? NO. Heck, I am pro-life----and that stuff makes me--and I am a man---want to go have an abortion! That kind of stuff-----is counterproductive.

It is all well and good to want to bring Christ to people and win souls. All I am saying is that I don't think Bible thumping is an effective way to do it.

Sometimes, the best way is direct and to the point, which obviously PO's you and other rc's off to no end. Telling sinners that GOD loves them without telling them the truth of their sins affirms their sins.

As I said, sir, if you think Bible thumping is effective, then have at it. You evangelize in your way, I will do so in my way.

 

[romishpopishorganist]

The way to reach people is to obey what the Lord says - preach the gospel, not bless people in their wickedness.

Fine. I don't think Bible thumping is an effective way to do this. That was my point.

But you evangelize in your way, I will do so in my way. If you want to Biblethump, then Biblethump.

By the way, we are not supposed to be trying to make people want to repent, that's God's job. We are supposed to be telling them their condition (guilty sinners, under condemnation) and the way out of that condition (the gospel).

Here is the "Actually....." part of your post, where you attack an irrelevant detail that was technically incorrect, but does not affect the point of the post.

Of course God is the one who draws up the desire to repent. I was not denying that.

 

[JohnDeVitoOfOld]

Or an apologist who doesn't want to waste time with hearts that are closed.

Nice to know that you are able to read men's hearts.

I am open to truth. You might consider that you are either not promoting truth, or that you you are doing a really bad job of it.

I see you criticizing someone for "biblethumping". You are catholicism thumping. You don't see that you are doing exactly what you complain of. I'd rather lean on God's word than on something that is speculated to be God's word.

 

[romishpopishorganist]

Nice to know that you are able to read men's hearts.

I don't need to be able to read your heart. I just need to be able to read your posts.

I am open to truth. You might consider that you are either not promoting truth, or that you you are doing a really bad job of it.

Oh? You mean to tell me that if I cite the Scriptures that Catholics believe reflect their teaching---you will give up Protestantism and become Catholic? You won't immediately give me 1001 reasons, dances, excuses, and rationalizations for why the Scriptures I cite do not actually teach Catholic doctrine, but in some way, somehow, affirm Protestantism? You won't do that?

I see you criticizing someone for "biblethumping". You are catholicism thumping.

So I am Catholicism thumping, am I? Am I telling you that if you do not give up the lie of Protestantism and all your unbiblical doctrines, you will burn in Hell? I am telling you that, and then claiming that I am saying this, not becasue I hate you, but because I love you? That is what you see me doing?

I do not claim, despite our disagreements that in the end, I see you as a fellow believer?

You don't see that you are doing exactly what you complain of. I'd rather lean on God's word than on something that is speculated to be God's word.

Again, please show me the post where I have told Protestant posters they are going to Hell if they do not give up the unbiblical doctrines they believe in, repent, and accept the one true Church.

 

[JohnDeVitoOfOld]

I don't need to be able to read your heart. I just need to be able to read your posts.

Oh? You mean to tell me that if I cite the Scriptures that Catholics believe reflect their teaching---you will give up Protestantism and become Catholic? You won't immediately give me 1001 reasons, dances, excuses, and rationalizations for why the Scriptures I cite do not actually teach Catholic doctrine, but in some way, somehow, affirm Protestantism? You won't do that?

So I am Catholicism thumping, am I? Am I telling you that if you do not give up the lie of Protestantism and all your unbiblical doctrines, you will burn in Hell? I am telling you that, and then claiming that I am saying this, not becasue I hate you, but because I love you? That is what you see me doing?

I do not claim, despite our disagreements that in the end, I see you as a fellow believer?

Again, please show me the post where I have told Protestant posters they are going to Hell if they do not give up the unbiblical doctrines they believe in, repent, and accept the one true Church.

Nice to know that you don't condemn me to hell. I have family members that have done that, I don't need any more.

Citing scripture is one part. Then actually wrestling through the scripture is the punch line. Satan cited scripture. In a sense, Jesus wrestled through it with him. Not as we need to, but He countered a Scriptural reference with an examination of the full meaning.

Too many times we (and I am guilty too) throw a verse out and expect the other folks to drop to their knees without actually studying on it. Paul didn't say, "Hear a verse and show yourself approved". He said "Study and show yourself approved." The first method is prooftexting. The latter is a complete immersion in scripture, a meditation on God's word, day and night.

So, no, citing Scripture is not enough to change a man. You must be able to put it together. Paul spent three days, reasoning with the Jews out of the Scriptures. Acts 17:2. Not out of tradition, or a catechism. Out of Scripture. He carried on a discussion. He put it together. And what did he put together? That Jesus is the Messiah. Not that Mary is the way to Jesus, or that someone we think was a good person can act as a go between with Jesus. Jesus is the Messiah. The Gospel message is very simple (2 Cor 11:3). We don't need other books that are bigger than the bible to explain the bible. Sure, reference matrials are interesting, but they are not how a man is born again. Jesus is Messiah. That is the unity of the church. Not mary, not saints, not Trump, not Obama, not anything else. Everything else is a sideshow.

 

[WilliamC]

Or an apologist who doesn't want to waste time with hearts that are closed.

You obviously are very passionate about your beliefs RPO. I commend you for your faithfulness and institutional knowledge. (I learn from you all the time).
To your statement above... are you claiming to be that apologist who thinks he is wasting time with hearts that are closed (i.e. NCs)?
Is your heart closed to anything a NC would say? I hope not.
My thought is, if we are not here to learn what is Scriptural truth...what God says (E.5:10-17) ,then we are wasting our time. I am here to hopefully discover new truths, and have. My heart is not closed, but at the same time I also know where I was at (Ph. 2:21) and where I am now. I hope to be ever learning what God wants me to know. God has enabled each one of us to work out our own salvation.(P.2:12) And I know that doesn't include someone else working out my salvation... telling me what truth is. The Holy Spirit will reveal that in time, and according to my willingness. Besides, there is no one else responsible for our salvation. (R. 14:10-12) And I am not just focusing on you, but want all to know, that we have to be willing to accept ALL truth, otherwise those who will not...will be left barren by God. (IIT. 2:10,11). I certainly don't want this.
Regardless, I hope you are never closed minded my friend, when it come to the truths of God. Blessings! WilliamC.

 

[leonard03782]

Consider: it is like the people who show up at abortion clinics dressed up as death or satan, and then shout at the women going in "You are a baby killer! You are going to Hell! God will get you!" Is that going to make a woman want to choose life? Is that going to convert anyone? NO. Heck, I am pro-life----and that stuff makes me--and I am a man---want to go have an abortion! That kind of stuff-----is counterproductive.

Where did I ever endorse this behavior? I know that it is counter productive. I do not agree with street preachers standing acroos the strees fromrc churches and yelling through a bullhorn at them.

 

[balshan]

Where did I ever endorse this behavior? I know that it is counter productive. I do not agree with street preachers standing acroos the strees fromrc churches and yelling through a bullhorn at them.

They forget what RC protestors do.

 

[David1701]

Fine. I don't think Bible thumping is an effective way to do this. That was my point.

But you evangelize in your way, I will do so in my way. If you want to Biblethump, then Biblethump.

...

Bible thumping is an insulting term, often used to give rebels an excuse not to obey God's commands. They often pretend not to want to do biblical evangelism, out of "love" (of course, it isn't really love at all, since love obeys the Lord).

To evangelise is to preach the "evangel" (the good news that the Lord Jesus Christ shed his blood and died on the cross, then rose from the dead, accomplishing a complete, once and for all victory over sin, death and the devil). We also need to tell the lost that they are guilty sinners (the law is an excellent tool for this), so that they realise the need for the gospel; that God now commands all men everywhere to repent; and that there is salvation from sin, through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

If anyone thinks that this is "Bible thumping", then whatever he does instead, is not evangelism.

 

[balshan]

Bible thumping is an insulting term, often used to give rebels an excuse not to obey God's commands. They often pretend not to want to do biblical evangelism, out of "love" (of course, it isn't really love at all), since love obeys the Lord.

To evangelise is to preach the "evangel" (the good news that the Lord Jesus Christ shed his blood and died on the cross, then rose from the dead, accomplishing a complete, once and for all victory over sin, death and the devil). We also need to tell the lost that they are guilty sinners (the law is an excellent tool for this), so that they realise the need for the gospel; that God now commands all men everywhere to repent; and that there is salvation from sin, through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

If anyone thinks that this is "Bible thumping", then whatever he does instead, is not evangelism.

Well stated. I mean in my day the nuns were big on hell, possession by the devil, scaring kids.

 

[David1701]

Well stated. I mean in my day the nuns were big on hell, possession by the devil, scaring kids.

My sister briefly went to a convent school, where the nuns were keen on hitting, demeaning and throwing things at the pupils. My parents quickly removed her from there.