RCs like a work based salvation

Johan said:
Well, if you really want to get technical about it: we are not saved by faith at all. Faith is not our savior. We are saved by Christ, who gave His life for our salvation. But that being said, we receive His salvific grace by faith alone and not by any works we do.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. (Eph. 2:8–9)

One has to be spiritually blind not to understand the simple and straightforward message of that passage.
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Grace isn't limited to faith.
 
balshan said:
Stop using the word alone, no one else does. It is your pet thing. We are saved by faith and not by works. If there is something else you should tell the world what it is, so they can get saved. Other wise stop putting words in that are not there.

We are clearly saved by post. I mean I posted that many verses which confirm that fact, as well as other posters. There can be no doubt, we are saved by faith which is a gift from God. After which we are changed by God and then we do works through Him and for Him.

It is clear from Eph 2:8 works do not save.
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I am not the only one using the word alone.

Salvation involves more than just faith.
 
dingoling. said:
Grace isn't limited to faith.
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The faithless are merited favor?

dingoling. said:
I am not the only one using the word alone.
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Yes you are.

dingoling. said:
Salvation involves more than just faith.
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Faith saves, not works....any 'work' done is done because of salvation, not done to be saved....

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness APART FROM WORKS....

and let's not forget Timothy....

Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
 
dingoling. said:
I am not the only one using the word alone.

Salvation involves more than just faith.
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Sola Fide is about justification by faith alone: not saved by faith alone
there are many components to salvation.

Those who are Predestined will be saved
Those who are Elect will be saved
Those who God calls will be saved
Those who are regenerated (born again)are saved
Those who have Faith are saved
Those who Repent are saved
Those who are Justified are saved
Those who are Adopted are saved
Those who are being sanctified are saved
Those who will be glorified will be saved

the doctrine Sola Fide addresses how is someone justified.
They are justified by faith alone
"Romans 5:1
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith,

none of the components of salvation involve works
 
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balshan said:
As Jesus said in Matt 19:23+, we are not saved by works, it is impossible for humans to save themselves. Paul also states the same it is not by works.

Matt 19:23+

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

eph 2:8+

. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast

Scripture is clear salvation comes from God through faith and not works. Why is that not acceptable to RCs? If you break one law then you break then all. There is no mitigating circumstances at all, you either keep the law or you don't. Works do not save. Does this mean you and live a hedonist? The answer is a clear NO. If you are born again, saved by God all you want to do is please HIM.

Why do RCs see works as saving?
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First lets define works, these are labors which we do to in debt those from whom we wish to receive payment, either in-kind or in wealth. But, there is another work, one we do for the good of the other for his own sake. These are good works or works of charity where there is no expectation of remuneration, the work is done simply for the good of the other person. Since, salvation is a grace, or gift, of God's love and mercy there can be no labor which can be valued as in-kind. On the other hand what God wants is not our labor but our love. The faithful do works of love just as a spouse does works of love without expectation of recompense, rather done for the good of the other.

If not then you have conflicting Scripture which we know can't exist.

"It is a faithful saying: and these things I will have thee affirm constantly: that they, who believe in God, may be careful to excel in good works. These things are good and profitable unto men." [Titus 3:8]

"So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself." [James 2:17]

Avoiding works of love conflicts with Christ's two greatest commandments, Love God and love of neighbor.

"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment. And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."[Matthew 22:37-39]

You must conclude then that there is nothing we have or nothing we can do that God wants of us except to love God and neighbor in our labors of love, i.e. work.

But, you have another list of what one considers "work" or labor. Please feel free to enumerate.

JoeT
 
Johan said:
So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. (Rom. 11:5–6)
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Yes we are saved by grace. The grace of God at work in our lives involves more than just faith. Grace enables us "to will and to work for his good pleasure."
 
JoeT said:
First lets define works, these are labors which we do to in debt those from whom we wish to receive payment, either in-kind or in wealth. But, there is another work, one we do for the good of the other for his own sake. These are good works or works of charity where there is no expectation of remuneration, the work is done simply for the good of the other person. Since, salvation is a grace, or gift, of God's love and mercy there can be no labor which can be valued as in-kind. On the other hand what God wants is not our labor but our love. The faithful do works of love just as a spouse does works of love without expectation of recompense, rather done for the good of the other.

If not then you have conflicting Scripture which we know can't exist.

"It is a faithful saying: and these things I will have thee affirm constantly: that they, who believe in God, may be careful to excel in good works. These things are good and profitable unto men." [Titus 3:8]

"So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself." [James 2:17]

Avoiding works of love conflicts with Christ's two greatest commandments, Love God and love of neighbor.

"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment. And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."[Matthew 22:37-39]

You must conclude then that there is nothing we have or nothing we can do that God wants of us except to love God and neighbor in our labors of love, i.e. work.

But, you have another list of what one considers "work" or labor. Please feel free to enumerate.

JoeT
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Before you define 'works' you have to realize that when reading from God's Word, it is extremely important that you truly know it's significance. If the Word of God is going to be handled accurately, then the Scripture must form the basis of our thoughts - not someone's idea - or the Roman Catholic popes opinion. Let Scripture speak for itself!
 
RayneBeau said:
Before you define 'works' you have to realize that when reading from God's Word, it is extremely important that you truly know it's significance. If the Word of God is going to be handled accurately, then the Scripture must form the basis of our thoughts - not someone's idea - or the Roman Catholic popes opinion. Let Scripture speak for itself!
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Sadly, he's been convinced by the RCC that he is incapable of understanding God's Word - as if God would want to communicate with His creatures in a secret code!

--Rich
"Esse quam videri"
 
dingoling. said:
Yes we are saved by grace. The grace of God at work in our lives involves more than just faith. Grace enables us "to will and to work for his good pleasure."
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are you declared righteous (justified) by God the moment you accept His gift of faith; or do you first have to do a certain amount of works?
 
dingoling. said:
Yes we are saved by grace. The grace of God at work in our lives involves more than just faith.
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Where do the Scriptures say that the grace of God "involves more than just faith"?
dingoling. said:
Grace enables us "to will and to work for his good pleasure."
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Again, where does the Bible say that grace enables us to do something? Your argumentation is all over the place. When the Scriptures say that the elect have been chosen by grace, it means that they were not chosen based on anything they had done, because otherwise "grace would no longer be grace" (Rom. 11:6). Likewise, when the Scriptures say that we have been saved by grace, it means that our salvation is not based on anything we have done (Eph. 2:9, 2 Tim. 1:9, Tit. 3:5). Instead, the salvation that He has procured and gives to His children is received by faith alone. As the hymn goes, "Nothing in my hands I bring, simply to Thy cross I cling."
 
JoeT said:
First lets define works, these are labors which we do to in debt those from whom we wish to receive payment, either in-kind or in wealth. But, there is another work, one we do for the good of the other for his own sake. These are good works or works of charity where there is no expectation of remuneration, the work is done simply for the good of the other person. Since, salvation is a grace, or gift, of God's love and mercy there can be no labor which can be valued as in-kind. On the other hand what God wants is not our labor but our love. The faithful do works of love just as a spouse does works of love without expectation of recompense, rather done for the good of the other.

If not then you have conflicting Scripture which we know can't exist.

"It is a faithful saying: and these things I will have thee affirm constantly: that they, who believe in God, may be careful to excel in good works. These things are good and profitable unto men." [Titus 3:8]

"So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself." [James 2:17]

Avoiding works of love conflicts with Christ's two greatest commandments, Love God and love of neighbor.

"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment. And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."[Matthew 22:37-39]

You must conclude then that there is nothing we have or nothing we can do that God wants of us except to love God and neighbor in our labors of love, i.e. work.

But, you have another list of what one considers "work" or labor. Please feel free to enumerate.

JoeT
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The saved walk in the works prepared for them beforehand....it's that simple.

We do those works because we are saved, never to be saved.

Your fellow RCC said salvation is merited....do you agree with them?

romishpopishorganist said:

Jesus is the head of the body, the Church. The Church, (the elect) are the Body of Christ. What goes on in the head goes on in the body. Thus, if redemption was an act of God and an act of man in the head, then in the body, redemption must work in a similar way. This is why for Catholics there is a human component to our redemption, why we can cooperate with God's grace and "merit" salvation.
 
Johan said:
Where do the Scriptures say that the grace of God "involves more than just faith"?
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Here is one:

Titus 2:11, "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all, 12training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and in the present age to live lives that are self-controlled, upright, and godly,"

Johan said:
Again, where does the Bible say that grace enables us to do something? Your argumentation is all over the place. When the Scriptures say that the elect have been chosen by grace, it means that they were not chosen based on anything they had done, because otherwise "grace would no longer be grace" (Rom. 11:6). Likewise, when the Scriptures say that we have been saved by grace, it means that our salvation is not based on anything we have done (Eph. 2:9, 2 Tim. 1:9, Tit. 3:5). Instead, the salvation that He has procured and gives to His children is received by faith alone. As the hymn goes, "Nothing in my hands I bring, simply to Thy cross I cling."
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Salvation is a complete salvation - Jesus is saving us from our sins as Paul says in Romans 7 and 8.
 
dingoling. said:
Here is one:

Titus 2:11, "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all, 12training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and in the present age to live lives that are self-controlled, upright, and godly,"
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Wonderful verse that show GRACE brings salvation....

5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit...

dingoling. said:
Salvation is a complete salvation - Jesus is saving us from our sins as Paul says in Romans 7 and 8.
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So you are saved now? Or is your salvation incomplete?
 
RayneBeau said:
Before you define 'works' you have to realize that when reading from God's Word, it is extremely important that you truly know it's significance. If the Word of God is going to be handled accurately, then the Scripture must form the basis of our thoughts - not someone's idea - or the Roman Catholic popes opinion. Let Scripture speak for itself!
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We'll let the Church define "work".

WORK: Continued exertion directed to some recognized purpose or end. The exertion may be physical or mental, and the purpose may be determined by the one who works or by someone else, who in turn may have his or her own motive for assigning the task. Christianity does not look upon work as demeaning or evil, as though leisure were more worthy of human dignity. Work ennobles a person’s character and assimilates one to the Savior. “We believe by faith that through the homage of work offered to God man is associated with the redemptive work of Jesus Christ, whose labor with his hands at Nazareth greatly ennobled the dignity of work. This is the source of every man’s duty to work loyally, as well as his right to work; moreover, it is the duty of society to see to it that, according to the prevailing circumstances, all citizens have the opportunity of finding employment” (Second Vatican Council, Constitution on the Church in the Modern World, III, 67). [ Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J., Modern Catholic Dictionary]

JoeT
 
JoeT said:
We'll let the Church define "work".

WORK: Continued exertion directed to some recognized purpose or end. The exertion may be physical or mental, and the purpose may be determined by the one who works or by someone else, who in turn may have his or her own motive for assigning the task. Christianity does not look upon work as demeaning or evil, as though leisure were more worthy of human dignity. Work ennobles a person’s character and assimilates one to the Savior. “We believe by faith that through the homage of work offered to God man is associated with the redemptive work of Jesus Christ, whose labor with his hands at Nazareth greatly ennobled the dignity of work. This is the source of every man’s duty to work loyally, as well as his right to work; moreover, it is the duty of society to see to it that, according to the prevailing circumstances, all citizens have the opportunity of finding employment” (Second Vatican Council, Constitution on the Church in the Modern World, III, 67). [ Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J., Modern Catholic Dictionary]

JoeT
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equivocate much?

this is the context:
Morally good acts that, when performed in the state of grace, merit supernatural reward. The term became highly controverted in Reformation times, when the leaders of Protestantism, notably Martin Luther (1483-1546), claimed that faith alone, and not good works, justifies. Implicit in the Catholic doctrine on good works is the belief that man's nature has not been totally depraved by reason of Adam's fall. Man is able freely to co-operate with divine grace to perform good works. His liberty is not totally enslaved by sin.
[Fr. John Hardon's Modern Catholic Dictionary,]
 
4Him said:
The saved walk in the works prepared for them beforehand....it's that simple.

We do those works because we are saved, never to be saved.

Your fellow RCC said salvation is merited....do you agree with them?
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Yes, I do agree.
4Him said:
romishpopishorganist said:

Jesus is the head of the body, the Church. The Church, (the elect) are the Body of Christ. What goes on in the head goes on in the body. Thus, if redemption was an act of God and an act of man in the head, then in the body, redemption must work in a similar way. This is why for Catholics there is a human component to our redemption, why we can cooperate with God's grace and "merit" salvation.
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Said very clearly, I agree with my fellow Catholic.

JoeT
 
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