Romans 9:5 and punctuation

imJRR

Well-known member
I'm interested in doing some reading regarding Romans 9:5 and the issue of how it should be punctuated.

Note: I'm interested in doing some READING about it; I'm not interested in debating about it, nor will I do so.

Just refer me to some well-written articles, or post what you yourself have discovered in your own readings.

Thanks in advance.
 
Philip Comfort devotes 6 paragraphs to this issue in his "New Testament Text and Translation Commentary".
 
A TREATISE ON THE GRAMMAR OF NEW TESTAMENT GREEK.

DR . G. B. WINER

Third Edition Revised,

Ninth English Edition

pp.166, 289, 690, 733



See especially p.690:

"Hence in Rom. ix. 5, if the words ὁ ὢν ἐπὶ πάντων Θεὸς εὐλογητὸς κ.τ.λ.
are referred to God, this collocation of the words is perfectly suitable,
and indeed necessary : Harless (see his note on E. i. 3) and many
others are mistaken here.[1]"

[1] Editor's note: [On Rom. ix. 5 see Alford and Vaughan in loc. ; Green, Cr. Notes, p. 121
sq. ; Gifford's note in Speak. Com. III. 17S sq. : and the discussion in the
Expositor, IX. 217, 397, X. 232. Compare Ellicott on E. i. 3.]
 
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I'm interested in doing some reading regarding Romans 9:5 and the issue of how it should be punctuated.

Note: I'm interested in doing some READING about it; I'm not interested in debating about it, nor will I do so.

Just refer me to some well-written articles, or post what you yourself have discovered in your own readings.

Thanks in advance.

Your objective here is not to get the result you want but to discover Paul's intended message.

Consider these facts:

1. The word Eulogētos

Notice how this word is used exclusively in the NT to refer to the God of Jesus.

Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One." (Mark 14:61).

"Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel." (Luke 1:68).

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Corinthians 1:3).

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." (Ephesians 1:3).

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Peter 1:3).

"They changed the truth of God into a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator who is Blessed to the ages. Amen." (Romans 1:25).

"The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ knows that I am not lying, he being Blessed to the ages."
(2 Corinthians 11:31).

"from whom the Christ according to the flesh. God who is over all be Blessed to the ages. Amen."
(Romans 9:5).


2. The Father is over all

one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all."
(Ephesians 4:6).

from whom the Christ according to the flesh. God who is over all be blessed to the ages. Amen."
(Romans 9:5).


3. Pauline Terminology & The Jewish Berakah

"The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, He who is blessed to the ages, knows that I do not lie." (2 Cor 11:31).

I am speaking the truth in Christ, I am not lying.... and from whom Christ according to the flesh. God who is over all be blessed to the ages. Amen." (Romans 9:5).


4. Paul is referring to a man of flesh who originated out of his Israelite ancestors. This man's God is someone else, the God of Israel.

"and out of whom the Christ according to the flesh."


5. The point of the overall passage is that the God of Israel gave Israel many blessings including God's Christ. Ending with a doxology to the God of Israel who is the God of Christ Jesus, is a natural thing to do in response to all these blessings the God of Israel & Jesus gave to Israel.
 
Theo - The pdf I found requires a membership of some sort to view the thing.

I was concered about that. The book is still under copyright, and the author deserves royalties from those who use them (cf. 1 Tim. 5:17-18).

Many years ago I was friends with a Mormon, and we both liked chess. I had told him about Chessmaster, which I had purchased, and he found a copy at the library. Six months later I discovered that he still had it on his computer, and I pointed out that he didn't buy it, he only borrowed it, and when the borrow period is over, you have to delete it from your computer.


Philip Comfort said:
The punctuation of this verse is critical to its exegesis. The punctuation functions to either conjoin the expression ο ων επι παντων θεος ευλογητος εις τους αιωνας (“the one being over all God blessed forever”) with ο Χριστος το κατα σαρκα (“the Christ according to the flesh”) or to separate it. Depending upon which punctuation is employed, Christ is said to be God or not to be God—obviously a crucial difference. One of the following two renderings represents the original thought:

“whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God[,] blessed forever. Amen.” (KJV NKJV RSVmg NRSV ESV NASB NIV TNIV NEBmg REBmg NJB NABmg NLT HCSB NET).​
“whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh. God, who is over all, be blessed forever. Amen.” (RSV NRSVmg NIVmg TNIVmg NEB REB NAB NLTmg HCSBmg NETmg)​

In the first rendering the comma following “flesh” signals that the following words constitute appositional expressions; hence, “Christ” is (1) “over all,” (2) “God,” and (3) “blessed forever.” This is rendered quite well in the RSVmg as “Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever.” In the second rendering, the period following “flesh” separates “the Christ” from these expressions—which are, instead, turned into a sentence of their own by inserting a predicate: “God, who is over all, be blessed forever!” (A slight modification on the second rendering is “whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all. God be blessed forever! Amen.”)

When we look to the ancient authorities for some help on this matter, we discover that the earliest witness, ?46, has a lacuna [hole] after σαρκα, so we cannot be certain if it was punctuated or not; but it seems that the allotted space could not allow for a punctuation mark by the hand of the original scribe. There is no punctuation mark in ℵ and D. A midpoint colon follows σαρκα [p. 456] in F G Ψ 049 056. A high point colon occurs after σαρκα in L 0142 0151. A space is left following the point in 0151 and following σαρκα in C. It is also reported that B2 (second corrector) added a midpoint after σαρκα (see Harris 1992, 149). This data tells us that some of the earliest scribes left the text ambiguous, and that later ones did not. The upshot is that it is the task of interpreters to determine whether Christ was being called God or God was being praised.

Westcott and Hort (1882, 109–110) indicated that most of the ante-Nicene and post-Nicene fathers understood the expression “God over all” to describe “Christ.” The primary reason for this is that it naturally follows the syntax of the Greek, whereas the doxology (“God be praised!”) is asyndetic and non-Pauline. It is highly unlikely that Paul would abruptly, even sporadically, insert a praise to God the Father at the end of his enumeration of the divine privileges and promises given to the Jews. To the contrary, he was culminating that list with the greatest blessing of all—that the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever, would come from the Jewish race! How could the Jews then reject him? This created anguish in Paul’s heart, which was all the more intensified by the fact that the Jews were rejecting God himself in the person of Christ. As John said, the Word who was God came to his very own people, but his very people did not recognize him—and, worse yet, did not receive him (see John 1:1, 10-11).

The conjecture proposed by some scholars (see NA27) that the text originally read ων ο instead of ο ων provides for an easy way out of the exegetical dilemma inasmuch as ων ο produces the translation, “whose are the fathers, and whose is the Christ according to the flesh, and whose is the God over all blessed forever. Amen.” In this rendering Christ and God, as separate entities, are two possessions of the Israelites. But the conjecture is suspect as a means of obviating one of the few Pauline affirmations of Christ’s deity. The other affirmations occur in Phil 2:6 (which says that Christ lives in the form of God, equal with God in all things); Col 2:9 (which says that all the fullness of the Godhead bodily dwells in Christ); and Titus 2:13 (wherein Christ is called God and Savior). (For a complete review of this issue, see Harris 1992, 143–172, who concludes that Paul was affirming Jesus’ deity in this verse. Also see TCGNT for a lengthy discussion by Metzger).

As for English versions, several affirm the interpretation that Christ is God over all, eternally blessed (KJV NKJV NRSV ESV NASB NIV TNIV NJB NLT HCSB NET). And most of the versions that do not present this in the text do note it as an alternative (RSVmg NEBmg REBmg NABmg).
 
I was concered about that. The book is still under copyright, and the author deserves royalties from those who use them (cf. 1 Tim. 5:17-18).

Many years ago I was friends with a Mormon, and we both liked chess. I had told him about Chessmaster, which I had purchased, and he found a copy at the library. Six months later I discovered that he still had it on his computer, and I pointed out that he didn't buy it, he only borrowed it, and when the borrow period is over, you have to delete it from your computer.

Thank you! This is a good read.
 
Phillip Comrort. - As for English versions, several affirm the interpretation that Christ is God over all, eternally blessed (KJV NKJV NRSV ESV NASB NIV TNIV NJB NLT HCSB NET). And most of the versions that do not present this in the text do note it as an alternative (RSVmg NEBmg REBmg NABmg).

That is not correct for the KJB:

Romans: 9:5 (AV)
Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came,
who is over all,
God blessed for ever.
Amen.

Christ is “over all”.

And then there are two possible interpretations.

1) Christ is “God blessed for ever”.

2) “God blessed for ever” is a separate doxology.

(1) is a more natural reading.

The 1611 has the same words, maybe a comma before Amen and came is in italics.
 
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"Westcott and Hort (1882, 109–110) indicated that most of the ante-Nicene and post-Nicene fathers understood the expression “God over all” to describe “Christ.” The primary reason for this is that it naturally follows the syntax of the Greek, whereas the doxology (“God be praised!”) is asyndetic and non-Pauline. It is highly unlikely that Paul would abruptly, even sporadically, insert a praise to God the Father at the end of his enumeration of the divine privileges and promises given to the Jews. To the contrary, he was culminating that list with the greatest blessing of all—that the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever, would come from the Jewish race! How could the Jews then reject him? This created anguish in Paul’s heart, which was all the more intensified by the fact that the Jews were rejecting God himself in the person of Christ. As John said, the Word who was God came to his very own people, but his very people did not recognize him—and, worse yet, did not receive him (see John 1:1, 10-11)."
Well, what do Wescott and Hort really say?

What they don't say is:
most of the ante-Nicene and post-Nicene fathers understood the expression “God over all” to describe “Christ.”

This is a blatant misappraisal of what they say (or rather what Hort says). Hort distinguishes the silence of AnteNicene writers from PostNicene writers, apart from the Eusebius and the "interpolator of the Ignatian epistles" - but which latter are of themselves very significant witnesses; and he further makes the point that the PostNicene writers are just part of the legacy of interpretation and without claim to original authority.

ix 5. The important variation in the punctuation of this verse belongs to interpretation, and not to textual criticism proper : but a few words on the alternative punctuations adopted here may not be out of place. The oldest Greek MSS Aleph,B,A, as written by the original scribes, have no punctuation in the passage: C and some good cursives have a full stop after σάρκα. Versions are either ambiguous or imply a comma after σάρκα. This last construction is taken for granted by Iren Tert Cyp Novat, and in the Antiochene epistle to Paul of Samosata. On the other hand this treatment of all the words from καΐ έξ ων to αἰῶνας as ' a single clause' (μονοκώλως), when put forward by Noetus, was condemned by Hipp ; his ground of objection being apparently the combination of ἐπὶ πάντων with Θεὸς as favourable to Patripassianism : referring the concluding words to Christ, he nevertheless makes them a separate sentence having three affirmations, — οὗτος ὁ ὢν ἐπὶ πάντων is Θεὸς, He is become (γεγένηται) Θεὸς εὐλογητὸς. He is αἰῶνας (Noet. 3, 6). In Rufinus's Latin rendering of Orig.loc. the comma after σάρκα is taken for granted : but there is not a trace of Origenian language, and this is one of the places in which Rufinus would not fail to indulge his habit of altering an interpretation which he disapproved on doctrinal grounds. With this questionable exception, there is no evidence to shew what construction was adopted by Orig, or indeed by any AnteNicene Alexandrian writer : but it is difficult to impute Origen's silence to accident in the many passages in which quotation would have been natural had he followed the common interpretation. Eusebius is equally silent, probably for the same reason : his repeated use of ὁ ἐπὶ πάντων Θεὸς as a name of the Father points in the same direction, though it is not conclusive. The Apostolic Constitutions and the interpolator of the Ignatian epistles (cf. Melito p. 413 Otto) still more emphatically distinguish ὁ ἐπὶ πάντων Θεὸς from Christ, but do not notice this passage. With these two probable though not certain exceptions, the construction with a comma after σάρκα is found universally in PostNicene times in East and West alike. All these particulars however belong merely to the history of ancient interpretations, and have no textual authority.
The punctuation in the margin, [which alone seems adequate to account for the whole of the language employed, more especially when it is considered in relation to the context, (H.)] though it may be understood with more or less difficulty in other ways, is here taken as an expression of the interpretation which implies that special force was intended to be thrown on ἐπὶ πάντων by the interposition of ών. This emphatic sense of ἐπὶ πάντων (cf. i 16; ii 9f.; iii 29f. ; x 12; xi 32, 36) is fully justified if St Paul's purpose is to suggest that the tragic apostacy of the Jews (vv. 2, 3) is itself part of the dispensations of "Him who is God over all", over Jew and Gentile alike, over past present and future alike; so that the ascription of blessing to Him is a homage to His Divine purpose and power of bringing good out of evil in the course of the ages (xi 13 — 16; 25 — 36). [Yet the juxtaposition of ὁ Χριστὸς τὸ κατὰ σάρκα and ὁ ών κ. τ. λ. seems to make a change of subject improbable. W.]​
Hort then makes a final grammatical point, as per Winer, that
This emphatic sense of ἐπὶ πάντων (cf. i 16; ii 9f.; iii 29f. ; x 12; xi 32, 36) is fully justified if St Paul's purpose is to suggest that the tragic apostacy of the Jews (vv. 2, 3) is itself part of the dispensations of "Him who is God over all", over Jew and Gentile alike, over past present and future alike; so that the ascription of blessing to Him is a homage to His Divine purpose and power of bringing good out of evil in the course of the ages (xi 13 — 16; 25 — 36).​
 
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It isn't difficult.

Who made this happen?

3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of the people of Israel. Theirs is the sonship, theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the Law, the Temple worship and the promises. 5 Theirs are the fathers and out of whom is the Christ...
Romans 9:4-5

The God of Israel made that happen for the people of Israel, the God of Jesus. Who then is to be praised/blessed? The God of Israel, the God of Jesus.

God who is over all be blessed to the ages. Amen.

The God of Jesus is to be praised for all these things that Israel was blessed with including the Messiah who came from the nation of Israel.

It's quite clear when you are not obsessed with pleasing your fleshly desires and making it say what your fleshly desires want it to say.
But like a drug addict and his heroin, many people just cannot help themselves.
 
Commentary on Romans
Ernst Kasemann

Translated from the fourth German edition of An Die Remer, © Ernst Kasemann, J. C. B. Mohr (Paul Siebeck) Tübingen 1980.


pp.259,260

"The prerogatives of Israel are not limited to gifts of the primal time (contra Munck, Christ, 30) nor are they transitory (Cerfaux, “Privilege,” 25). Salvation history is not immanent for Paul. Grounded in God’s election and determined historically by the promise, the people whom it embraces is marked sacramentally (Schlier, “Mysterium,” 235ff.). It is in this light that we are to understand the hotly debated conclusion. Interpretation should start with the fact that ευλογητός ε’ις τούς αιώνας, άμήν undoubtedly forms a double acclamation. There is no reason to detach it from what precedes, and irrespective of the details it imparts to the whole a doxological character (Ridderbos; Maier, Israel, 9). One cannot contest, as in an exegesis which did not yet work with stylistic criticism, its presence, but only its reference.​
"It can hardly be the last member in the chain, as the conjecture of a relative link ών ό seeks to assert (according to BAGD, 357a dating from the Socinian J. Schlichting; Barth; Lorrimer, “Romans IX, 3-5”; Bartsch, "Rom. 9, 5," 406ff.; cf. the discussion in Sanday and Headlam; Murray, 245ff.: Michel). We thus have the alternative debated from the days of Arianism (cf. Schelkle, Paulus, 33 lff.; Lyonnet, Quaestiones, II, 2lff.): christological apposition to v. 5a or praise of God in an independent clause looking back to vv. 4-5a. The problem cannot be solved dogmatically, although this has constantly been attempted. The apostle never directly calls Christ God, let alone the emphatic ό έπΐ πάντων θεός, which would be hard to imagine in view of the subordinationism in 1 Cor 15:27f. It can hardly be accepted, then, that in an extreme paradox anticipating the later doc-trine of the two natures, he is according this title to the earthly Messiah of Israel. On the other hand, like Hellenistic Christianity in general, he obviously sees in Christ the pre-existent heavenly being to whom the Ισα θεώ of Phil 2:6 applies. Theologically Interpretation will always build on either the one aspect or the other according to one’s total understanding of christology, and arguments to the con-trary will be rejected. Today, however, it is only along the lines of stylistic criticism that the debate can be conducted.​
"One must admit that the form of the doxology is unusual, for elsewhere the predicate comes first, closely related to what precedes (Zahn; Kühl; Lagrange; Prat, Theology, II, 126f.; Cullmann, Christology, 312f.; Ridderbos). Even more unusual, however, would be a Christ doxology, for which the acclamations of the Kyrios in 1 Cor 8:6; 12:3; Phil 2:11 in Paul, and the δόξα acclamations in Rev 1:6; 2 Pet 3:18, only prepare the way, no such doxology being actually found in the NT. ln keeping with this is the fact that predicating Christ directly as God is also Singular and that it would obscure the emphasis of the context. The main point here is that of Israel’s blessings. A doxology is appropriate, since God has given the blessings and in so doing, as in blessings granted to the Christian community (Eph 4:6). he has shown himself to be ό ών επί πάντων, namely, the one who directs history (Luz, Geschichtsverständnis, 27; Berger, "Abraham,” 79; Cerfaux, Christ, 517ff.; Taylor; Jülicher; Lietzmann; Dodd; Kuss, "Rolle,” 129). There is a parallel in the doxology in 11:33-36, and such a doxology impressively manifests the solidarity of the apostle to the Gentiles with his people. Insertions between the article and θεός are to be found elsewhere (Champion, "Benedictions,” 124f.). The dominant christological Interpretation should be rejected."
 
Although the earliest uncials and papyri didn't have original punctuation, that when they started using punctuation, that they put puntuation after σάρκα may be quite significant:

"The strongest (?) evidence against the reference to Christ is that of the leading uncial MSS. Of these Sinaiticus has no punctuation, Alexandrinus undoubtedly puts a point after σάρκα, and also leaves a slight space. The punctuation of this chapter is careful, and certainly by the original hand; but as there is a similar point and space between Χριστοῦ and ὑπέρ in ver. 3, a point between σάρκα and οἵτινες, and another between Ἰσραηλῖται and ὧν, there is no reason as far as punctuation is concerned why ό ὧν should not refer to Χριστός as much as οἵτινες does to ἀδελφῶν." Vaticanus has a colon after σάρκα, but leaves no space, while there is a space left at the end of the verse. The present colon is however certainly not by the first hand, and whether it covers an earlier stop or not cannot be ascertained. Codex Ephraemi Rescript has a stop after σάρκα. The difference between the MSS. and the Fathers has not been accounted for and is certainly curious."​
[source]
Otherwise I don't trust this source - it seems insincere.

I like this succint list of reasons in favor of "God over all blessed for ever":

  1. There is no instance in which Paul unambiguously calls Jesus "God" in any of his letters, so the translation in the NIV is contrary to Pauline usage.
(Many scholars cite an alleged parallel at Titus 2:13 to justify the translation "Christ, who is God over all" in Romans 9:5. However, Titus 2:13 only calls Jesus "THE GLORY OF our great God and Savior" or "our great God and Savior's glory," not the great God and Savior Himself. In the same epistle, Paul also calls Christ "the grace of God" (Titus 2:11) and "the love of God" (Titus 3:4), so it would hardly be out of place for Paul to call Jesus "the glory of God" here.​
Moreover, all of the earliest translations read "the glory of the great God and our Savior" instead of "the glory of our great God and Savior," indicating that many early translators believed that Titus 2:13 refers to two persons.)​
  1. Paul always applies the word "blessed" to God, never to Christ, unless Romans 9:5 is an exception.
  2. It would make absolutely no sense for Paul to write that Christ was "God over all, blessed forever" in the midst of a dissertation that was about the nation of Israel, not about the person of Christ.
  3. However, after mentioning all of God's blessings upon Israel (divine sonship, the splendor of the divine presence, the covenants, the giving of the Torah, the temple worship service, the promises to the patriarchs, and the Christ), it would be most natural for Paul to conclude with a doxology to the God who gave these blessings to the nation of Israel.
(With regard to the position of the word "blessed," it should be noted that Psalm 67:19-20 places eulogetos after kyrios ho theos ("the Lord God") in the Greek Septuagint, the same word order as here.)​
[source]

Another reason in favor of "God over all blessed for ever" that few commentators mention is the grammar of the highly relevant analogous passage in Rom 1:25

.".....τὸν Κτίσαντα, ὅς ἐστιν εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας· ἀμήν."

(..........the creator, who is blessed to the ages Amen).

If Paul has wanted to use a "who is" construct in Rom 9:5 in reference to Christ, he would have used the long (grammatically unambiguous) form, ὅς ἐστιν in preference to the short hand (contextually ambiguous) form ό ὧν.

In Rom 1:25, the "creator" is identified as "God".
 
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If Paul has wanted to use a "who is" construct in Rom 9:5 in reference to Christ, he would have used the long (grammatically unambiguous) form, ὅς ἐστιν in preference to the short hand (contextually ambiguous) form ό ὧν.

In Rom 1:25, the "creator" is identified as "God".
That said, some would go so far as to say that ό ὧν is not ambiguous in the least: but rather militates against anything after "Christ" in this context, just because "Christ" is contained within a ὧν κατὰ phrase (whom according to the flesh Christ), which whilst not absolutely definitive, is a natural termination of a line of thought, signifying the commencement of a new line of thought, frequently by a preposition or conjunction: cf. Rom 1;3, Rom 1;4. So here we would have expected ὅς ἐστιν after the κατὰ phrase as a minimum, or even καὶ ὅς ἐστιν.
 
(With regard to the position of the word "blessed," it should be noted that Psalm 67:19-20 places eulogetos after kyrios ho theos ("the Lord God") in the Greek Septuagint, the same word order as here.)​
[source]

You should check the text, and look at the full construction, to see if there is an analogy in the phrase κύριος ὁ θεὸς εὐλογητός with Romans 9:5.

Also note the comments right below.

Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology
"And there the Hebrew adheres to the common form, and the Greek version is a rhetorical paraphrase of the original."
 
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You should check the text, and look at the full construction, to see if there is an analogy in the phrase κύριος ὁ θεὸς εὐλογητός with Romans 9:5.

Also note the comments right below.

Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology
"And there the Hebrew adheres to the common form, and the Greek version is a rhetorical paraphrase of the original."
The words in the Greek of Ps 68:19 (LXX/Vulgate Ps 67:19) κύριος ὁ θεὸς εὐλογητός appear to be an addition to the Hebrew. I conclude this word arrangement is not conditioned by the Hebrew text; and so is directly analogous to Rom 9:5.
 
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