Some Calvinists seem to not believe in freewill. Is that true. God does. It is in His word 17 times.
- Thread starter SavedByTheLord
- Start date
- Status
nope
ἐνεργέω energeō work; be at work; be in action; produce
work, not cause to happen in a particular way
you are reading your theology into word meanings
Manfred
Well-known member
Of course.
Which part of this scripture is hard for you to understand:
Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—
Nothing there states these were unconditionally determined before the foundation of the world
and if you read further in Romans 9 the summary statement
Romans 9:30–32 (KJV 1900) — 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
and if you do not ignore the fact Romans 9-11 is a unit
Romans 10:16–21 (KJV 1900) — 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. 19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
Romans 11:19–24 (KJV 1900) — 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
or disregard light from other biblical sources
2 Timothy 2:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
Your view becomes untenable.
Manfred
Well-known member
Everything in there states that God's mercy is not dependent on the human will.
Everything in there indicates that God will have mercy and compassion on whom He will have mercy and compassion.
Everything in there indicates that God has created vessels for honor, and vessels for destruction.
Your premise that this happens after He observes the human will is ludicrous.
Therefore everything in there indicates that God unconditionally determines on whom He will have mercy and compassion.
You can try and twist that as much as you like.
Your fight is against God and for self!
Why don't you read on
Romans 11:32 (KJV 1900) — 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
In any case this remains true
Nothing there states these were unconditionally determined to believe before the foundation of the world
Manfred
Well-known member
When your argument fails, you revert to universalism, and pretend you don't.
I already showed you that it does.
But you are unable to understand Spiritual truths.
2Co 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.
2Co 4:4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
There is no universalism in my posts and you simply ignore scriptural context and
attempt a smear campaign
Still says nothing at all about unconditional election to salvation
and mitigates again your theology of total inability.
Why does Satan need to blind those who are not capable of believing
Your theology is anti scriptural
try
Manfred
Well-known member
Of course there is.
You imply it by saying this:
What do you want me read into that text?
Are you saying God will have mercy on all people or not?
The scripture says he will have mercy and compassion on whom He will have mercy and compassion.
What then are you alluding to if not universal mercy!
Stop playing the victim!
Of course it does.
He will have mercy and compassion on whom He will have mercy and compassion.
It depends not on anything they had done, because it was determined before their birth.
You cannot understand this because:
2Co 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.
2Co 4:4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
They are not capable because they are blinded. Not the other way around.
Children can understand such elementary things.
1Co 15:21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.
That would only be your uniformed opinion.
You are unable to understand any spiritual truths because you are remain dead:
2Co 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.
2Co 4:4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
You mean scripture
Romans 11:31–32 (KJV 1900) — 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Did you remove it from your bible?
God shows mercy on both jew and gentile
Mercy is not immediately getting what you deserve
Mercy was sending Christ to the cross to die for all
Mercy is the free gift of righteousness if you trust on Christ
There is no universalism there
Read above
God's mercy is not arbitrary. It is not pre-apportioned for some and with held from others
He offers mercy to all who will fulfil his condition
Sorry that is your theology not bible
In the context of Romans 9 those with faith find mercy
God's gift of righteousness is granted to whoever will believe
Romans 9:30–32 (KJV 1900) — 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
It is not arbitrary as you presuppose
Romans 10:16–21 (KJV 1900) — 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. 19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
Romans 11:19–23 (KJV 1900) — 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
You have no idea what you are talking about. You have swallowed a non biblical theology and cannot read scripture in context.
Thus your response to scripture is nothing but personal invective
Manfred
Well-known member
Nothing but contradictions
Does God have mercy on every individual!
yes or no?
You cannot answer because it blows you out of the water.
God has unconditionally determined on whom He will have mercy and compassion, and it is not every person.
Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—
God has prepared vessels for destruction.
Deal with it!
He has also beforehand, before they did anything good or bad prepared vessels for his Glory.
You cannot understand this because:
2Co 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.
2Co 4:4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
By sending Christ to die for them yes
By offering the free gift of righteousness yes
By offering them salvation yes
By giving them space to repent yes
BTW you did nothing to show God made them vesels of wrath
2 Timothy 2:20 (ESV) — 20 Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for honorable use, some for dishonorable.
your objections are easy to answer for you have idea of harmonizing scripture, and you try to force everything into your aberrant theology
Manfred
Well-known member
You have not been able to harmonize any scripture.
You keep contradicting scripture.
Christ did not die for every individual.
If He did all individuals would be saved.
There is your universalism on display again, and you will just deny.
Where is the offer of a free gift of righteousness to every individual!
You make stuff up and say you harmonize scripture.
You show that you are unable to understand scripture.
Where is the space to repent given to all people?
Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;
Mat 11:26 yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.
Mat 11:27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
You directly contradict scripture and claim harmonization.
What do I have to show apart from scripture!
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”
You contradict scripture and claim God is not the molder!
But I understand you are not able to understand because:
Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;
Sorry you are simply quoting your theology and denying scripture
1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
end pt1
here
Romans 5:18 (KJV 1900) — 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
end pt2
You understand nothing
This speaking of Christ's time on earth before the gospel was to be sent to all men
Matthew 28:18–20 (KJV 1900) — 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Mark 16:14–15 (KJV 1900) — 14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
end pt3
You have no understanding of the passage you quote
It is a reference from
Jeremiah 18:1–12 (KJV 1900) — 1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 2 Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. 3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. 7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. 11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good. 12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.
God had made Israel for a noble purpose
Romans 9:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
but the clay was marred (see highlighted verse in Jer 18 above)
because Israel was unfaithful he used them for another purpose an ignoble purpose and they would suffer wrath for their unfaithfulness
Their stubborness and refusal to come in God's way is clearly seen in Jer 18
Jeremiah 18:9–12 (KJV 1900)
9And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
11Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
12And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.
in Rom 9
Romans 9:30–32 (KJV 1900) — 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
in Romans 10
Romans 10:16–21 (KJV 1900) — 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. 19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
in romans 11
Romans 11:18–24 (KJV 1900) — 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
You keep reading the bible out of context which is why it is a mystery to you
You cannot read the gospel and not see judgment was to come upon Israel because of their unfaithfulness
Read Matthew 23&24
Read Luke 21
God did not arbitrarily before the foundation of earth say I will make this one to be as a vessel of wrath.
Last edited:
Well here's your chance to weigh in on that, Tom.
Has God forbidden sin to be in the world? ?
Well here's your chance to weigh in on that, Tom.
Has God forbidden sin to be in the world? ?
Stop spamming the same question over and over
it was answered, but you failed to address this
- Status