The Coin-Flipper (and randomness)

[Caroljeen]

@Caroljeen

Here is the same thing put into other words by a first century Christian. He covers a lot of ground rapidly so you may have to read it a few times. Notice though that he allegorizes Joshua, son of Nun, and calls him “Jesus.” Then he proceeds to associate him with the “last Adam” being refashioned in Gen 1 by the Holy Spirit. Subsequently, he asserts that we are that “Adam“ because of “Joshua” leading us by the Spirit. If you read what I wrote above and compare it to this first century Christian you should see a parallel in perspective about the real Joshua (aka Jesus) being allegorically perceived as a moral consciousness from Hebrew scripture written on our heart or will.

(Epistle of Barnabas)
And Moses also says to them,

“Behold these things, saith the Lord God: Enter into the good land which the Lord swore [to give] to Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and inherit ye it, a land flowing with milk and honey.”

What, then, says Knowledge (Greek: gnosis)?

Learn: “Trust,” she says, “in Him who is to be manifested to you in the flesh [in OUR flesh]—that is, Jesus (that is, Joshua, Son of Nun).” For man is earth in a suffering state, for the formation of Adam was from the face of the earth.

What, then, meaneth this: “INTO THE GOOD LAND, a land flowing with milk and honey?” …

Since, therefore, having renewed us by the remission of our sins, He hath MADE US after another pattern, [it is His purpose] that we should possess the soul of children, inasmuch as He has CREATED US ANEW by His Spirit.1509 For the Scripture says CONCERNING US, while He speaks to the Son,

“Let Us make man after Our image, and after Our likeness; and let them have dominion over the beasts of the earth, and the fowls of heaven, and the fishes of the sea.”

And the Lord said, on beholding the fair creature man, “Increase, and multiply, and replenish the earth.”These things [were spoken] to the Son. Again, I will show thee how, IN RESPECT TO US, He has accomplished a second fashioning in these last days. The Lord says, “Behold, I will make the last [Adam] like the first [Adam].”

In reference to this, then, the prophet proclaimed, “Enter ye into the land flowing with milk and honey, and have dominion over it.” Behold, therefore, WE have been refashioned, as again He says in another prophet,

“Behold, saith the Lord, I will take away from these, that is, from those whom the Spirit of the Lord foresaw, their stony hearts, and I will put hearts of flesh within them,”

because He was to be manifested in [our] flesh, and to sojourn among us. For, my brethren, the habitation of OUR HEART is a holy temple to the Lord.”

IOW, Joshua, Son of Nun, according to the type, is to be manifest in our flesh, written on our hearts, as a moral consciousness, leading us to the promised land, —leading us to “the good land.” And Our fleshy body, to include the material universe, is the “Temple” that currently houses the Joshua, son of Nun, according to the types.

I've never read the Epistle of Barnabas. Do the words in parentheses and brackets belong to the author or you?
What does Joshua the son of Nun have to do with Christ in us?

 

[docphin5]

I've never read the Epistle of Barnabas. Do the words in parentheses and brackets belong to the author or you?

A few are mine to point out who Barnabas is referring to. Some parenthetical words are the translators to help clarify the translation. The original source is from, “Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 1” if you want to check it out.

When I read the epistle of Barnabas I hear the words of Paul’s traveling companion. Some scholars don’t like some of the boasting in the letter but even Paul was known to do a little boasting in defense of his credentials. Apparently, the ability to allegorize scripture was the marker for a teacher back then. It was expected. Were they 100% accurate all the time? Probably not, but we can take what is good and set aside what is questionable.

What does Joshua the son of Nun have to do with Christ in us?

Paul perceived the celestial Messiah in the Hebrew scriptures by the pesher method or allegorizing the stories. When Paul names the anointed Joshua (his actual name is Joshua, not Jesus, BTW) he is referring to the types in Hebrew scripture. The anointed Joshua (or Jesus) leading Israel across the Jordan to the Good Land is allegorically perceived by Paul as Jesus (Holy Spirit, 2 cor 3:17) leading us (spiritual Israel) through the wilderness (this world) to the new kingdom. Even water baptism is analogous to crossing the river Jordan. To the world today such interpretations are deemed unnecessary as we have replaced the stories with sacraments and a layer of non-Jewish traditions but to Jews back then who Paul was writing to oftentimes the stories in Hebrew scripture meant everything to them. He was showing them from their own scriptures “the holy oracles” who Christ actually is to us and to our world.

”For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.” (Romans 15:4)

 

[docphin5]

What about this argument?
"Paul knew Jesus' brother, James, and he knew his closest disciple, Peter, and he tells us that he did," Ehrman says. "If Jesus didn't exist, you would think his brother would know about it, so I think Paul is probably pretty good evidence that Jesus at least existed," he says."

These are positions that have been worked through in detail by others so for more details one should go to them, eg., Dohertys book. But in short, Paul refers to all Christians as his brothers and sisters so there is a good argument that when Paul speaks of James, “the Lord’s brother”, he is contrasting him to another James, who he disagrees with. I will try to put a link where I touched on it before.

see post #5 at <What Paul actually said>

'Did Jesus Exist?' A Historian Makes His Case

Some claim that Jesus is a myth, created for nefarious or altruistic purposes. Some truly believed that Jesus lived and breathed. But did he really? Is there any historical evidence? Historian and religious studies professor Bart Ehrman answers these questions in his new book, Did Jesus Exist?.

www.npr.org

Paul not only describes Jesus as God in whom we live and move and have our being, but also as a real man who lived, died on a cross, rose from the dead, and will return. 1Cor 15, 2 Thess 2

This is all smoke and mirrors. If you go to Paul’s literal words in his epistles he is always referring to the INNER Jesus. There is no solitary human in sight. There is no Jesus of Nazareth, ever, in Paul’s epistles. Translators have a tremendous power to shape the meaning of Paul’s Greek words when translating them to English and they deliberately subordinate them, shape them, to fit popular expectations, whereas, the literal meaning speaks of something entirely different known to Paul’s peers.

Subsequent to the apostles the Catholic church banned the former meanings of Paul’s actual words. A good example is when Paul explicitly writes that Christ was perceived as an “abortion.” (1 cor. 15:8). It is a direct reference to the Sophia mythology where the fallen Sophia is the source of our material, lifeless, universe, perceived as an “abortion.” But the church banned that meaning and shapes the words to give it another meaning. That is why you have to be soooo careful because you are being led down a different path than the one Paul was originally on, the one he was actually writing about. Joshua, aka, Jesus is associated with our moral consciousness and in some people, eg., prophets, apostles, he is more pronounced than others which presumably is why they could speak for the Holy Spirit (1 Peter 1:11).

I think you are confusing real actual events with myths. The early Christians were not becoming martyrs for myths but for a Jesus that really existed whom Paul met on the road to Damascus.

That is another example of misinformation. Paul explicitly says that God revealed Jesus IN Paul (Gal 1:16), and it is his first-hand account! It was much later that the bright light and booming voice from heaven was added by third-hand witnesses in Acts of the Apostles in order to elevate Paul as an apostle who allegedly physically saw and heard God. IOW, Acts of the Apostles is not reliable. It is promoting the faith through embellishment and addressing concerns through misinformation, for example, addressing the split between Paul and Peter by making them seem as equals and by putting words in Paul’s mouth that explicitly contradict what he wrote in his epistles. They were not equals in Paul’s mind. Peter was Paul’s opponent if you read his letter to the Galatians. He derides the apostles in Jerusalem as “so-called apostles.” The point is that history of the church has been edited to support the Catholic church’s version of events. One has to really dig to unearth the truth about what actually happened, what was actually written, and what it meant to to Paul and his colleagues.

One quick point of information. ”Damascus” stands for Qumran in the Dead Sea Scrolls. So Paul the Pharisee could have been going to Qumran to persecute the founders of “The Way”.

 

[Caroljeen]

A few are mine to point out who Barnabas is referring to. Some parenthetical words are the translators to help clarify the translation. The original source is from, “Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 1” if you want to check it out.

When I read the epistle of Barnabas I hear the words of Paul’s traveling companion. Some scholars don’t like some of the boasting in the letter but even Paul was known to do a little boasting in defense of his credentials. Apparently, the ability to allegorize scripture was the marker for a teacher back then. It was expected. Were they 100% accurate all the time? Probably not, but we can take what is good and set aside what is questionable.

Paul perceived the celestial Messiah in the Hebrew scriptures by the pesher method or allegorizing the stories. When Paul names the anointed Joshua (his actual name is Joshua, not Jesus, BTW) he is referring to the types in Hebrew scripture. The anointed Joshua (or Jesus) leading Israel across the Jordan to the Good Land is allegorically perceived by Paul as Jesus (Holy Spirit, 2 cor 3:17) leading us (spiritual Israel) through the wilderness (this world) to the new kingdom. Even water baptism is analogous to crossing the river Jordan. To the world today such interpretations are deemed unnecessary as we have replaced the stories with sacraments and a layer of non-Jewish traditions but to Jews back then who Paul was writing to oftentimes the stories in Hebrew scripture meant everything to them. He was showing them from their own scriptures “the holy oracles” who Christ actually is to us and to our world.

”For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.” (Romans 15:4)

The types and shadows of the OT were figures of Christ and the heavenlies in the NT which are the realities. I don't think that is what you are saying.

 

[Caroljeen]

This is all smoke and mirrors. If you go to Paul’s literal words in his epistles he is always referring to the INNER Jesus. There is no solitary human in sight. There is no Jesus of Nazareth, ever, in Paul’s epistles. Translators have a tremendous power to shape the meaning of Paul’s Greek words when translating them to English and they deliberately subordinate them, shape them, to fit popular expectations, whereas, the literal meaning speaks of something entirely different known to Paul’s peers.

I find it difficult to believe they would be able to do that and no one would call them on it.

As for Paul always referring to the INNER Jesus or Christ in us. I don't see how you can say this. Who is Paul referring to below? Not a mythical Jesus for this Jesus died, was buried, and rose from the dead. He appeared to many people visibly after he rose from the dead. Paul believes in a literal Jesus not a myth.

1 Cor 12:3 For I handed on to you as of first importance what I in turn had received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures 4 and that he was buried and that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have died.[b] 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, unfit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me has not been in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I but the grace of God that is with me. 11 Whether then it was I or they, so we proclaim and so you believed.

The Resurrection of the Dead​

12 Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised, 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation is in vain and your faith is in vain. 15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified of God that he raised Christ—whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised. 17 If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile, and you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have died[c] in Christ have perished. 19 If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

 

[docphin5]

I find it difficult to believe they would be able to do that and no one would call them on it.

Scholars have been calling it out for centuries by pointing out the incipient gnosticism in Paul’s epistles but popular opinion is hard to overturn. Since most people who buy Bibles are not gnostic then the Translators shape the meaning for people like you.
the following verse is a PERFECT example.

Over and over in gnostic literature involving cosmogenesis the gnostics perceived the fallen Christ, the Lamb slain at the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8), as an “abortion” because our universe BEGAN as LIFELESS matter. look it up on Biblehub. What ALL the apostles perceived was an “abortion.” Translators twist it mean late or that Paul was referring to himself as an abortion or any way, except the way the apostles understood it, backed up by the Nag Hammadi literature and other incipient gnosticism in Paul’s epistles.

Christ’s death resulted in producing matter in a lifeless state. The gnostics called this lifeless state at the foundation of our world an “abortion.” It is HOW all the apostles perceived the Christ “slain at the foundation of the world.” (Rev 13:8).

Basically, the world is being misled from what Paul was actually saying about a cosmic Christ slain at the foundation of the world (aka Big Bang) producing lifeless matter TO a superstitious belief that a human reassembled his decomposing flesh.

As for Paul always referring to the INNER Jesus or Christ in us. I don't see how you can say this. Who is Paul referring to below? Not a mythical Jesus for this Jesus died, was buried, and rose from the dead. He appeared to many people visibly after he rose from the dead. Paul believes in a literal Jesus not a myth.

1 Cor 12:3 , as to one UNTIMELY BORN. ABORTION, he appeared also to me. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, unfit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the c

If what I said above is true then naturally it follows that moral life in us 13.7 billion years AFTER the Big Bang IS the risen Christ in the universe, not bodily, for that would take internalizing matter to become spirit, but soul-wise. The universe has produced a moral being(s) IN us. Therefore, Paul exclaims, “We have been raised up with Christ.” In fact, we are Christ, technically, “members of him.” for we make up his body. We bring life to it, —not the mythical one in the Gospels (that Paul never knew), but to the cosmic Christ that Paul describes in his epistles over and over. And over again. Therefore, the resurrection of Christ begins with us soul-wise then proceeds to the universal body at the end of this material age, when the cosmos is remade, matter is internalized to become spirit (light or energy), as it was in the beginning.

The Resurrection of the Dead
12 Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised, 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation is in vain and your faith is in vain. 15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified of God that he raised Christ—whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised. 17 If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile, and you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have died[c] in Christ have perished. 19 If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

So you can see from just these two examples, Paul’s world view was much grander than most realize. It was on cosmic scales of size and majesty.

 

[docphin5]

The types and shadows of the OT were figures of Christ and the heavenlies in the NT which are the realities. I don't think that is what you are saying.

The types and shadows of the OT were figures of the cosmic/celestial Christ in the heavenlies which Paul expounded on and/or revealed in his epistles. Then subsequently, another re-veiled, personified, and hid into the Gospel myths as the solitary revelatory teacher, namely, Jesus (Joshua). There is a good case to be made that Jesus and John the Baptist are cyphers for Paul and the Teacher of Righteousness who were both actual revelatory teachers presumably anointed by the Holy Spirit, the two anointed ones of “The Last Days” who actually founded, formed, and spread the universal faith of Christianity to the world. If Christ is in all things, as surely he is, then his presence in them was to a degree not seen in others, for without them there would be no universal faith for us to believe.