The logical truth and reality of God's believing mind.

[Tetsugaku]

Is that your rebuttal to what I said about Mr. Carroll's meandering?

No, my rebuttal was where I showed how everything you said in response to the Carroll quote was a complete strawman misrepresentation of what he actually said.

Tell me why you think that my interpretation of QM is wrong or illogical.

You are wrong when you say that QM requires a mind for wave function collapse. In support of this I gave you a direct quote from a physicist disagreeing with you. In support of your own uneducated opinion on QM you've given nothing whatsoever.

 

[Tercon]

Of course it there in the Bible right in front of your eyes, so why can't you see it? I highlighted it in a different color just for you., so you can't miss it.

And there are more verses that support what I said, but all of them requires a believing mind in order to make their truth known to you. You do realize that all the truth in the Bible requires a believing mind in order for it to be known to you right?

And a third messenger did follow them, saying in a great voice, `If any one the beast doth bow before, and his image, and doth receive a mark upon his (1)forehead, or upon (2) his hand, (Revelation 14:10)

and there was given to it to give a spirit to the image of the beast, that also the image of the beast may speak, and [that] it may cause as many as shall not bow before the image of the beast, that they may be killed. And it maketh all, the small, and the great, and the rich, and the poor, and the freemen, and the servants, that it may '(2nd kind of unbeliever)' give to them (one kind of unbeliever) a mark upon their right hand or upon (and the 2nd kind of unbeliever) their foreheads , and that no one may be able to buy, or to sell, except he who is having the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. (Revelation 13:15-17)

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the (1st) mark upon their forehead and (2nd) upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years; (Revelation 20:4-5)

 

[Beloved Daughter]

Of course it there in the Bible right in front of your eyes, so why can't you see it? I highlighted it in a different color just for you., so you can't miss it.

And there are more verses that support what I said, but all of them requires a believing mind in order to make their truth known to you. You do realize that all the truth in the Bible requires a believing mind in order for it to be known to you right?

And a third messenger did follow them, saying in a great voice, `If any one the beast doth bow before, and his image, and doth receive a mark upon his (1)forehead, or upon (2) his hand, (Revelation 14:10)

and there was given to it to give a spirit to the image of the beast, that also the image of the beast may speak, and [that] it may cause as many as shall not bow before the image of the beast, that they may be killed. And it maketh all, the small, and the great, and the rich, and the poor, and the freemen, and the servants, that it may '(2nd kind of unbeliever)' give to them (one kind of unbeliever) a mark upon their right hand or upon (and the 2nd kind of unbeliever) their foreheads , and that no one may be able to buy, or to sell, except he who is having the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. (Revelation 13:15-17)

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the (1st) mark upon their forehead and (2nd) upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years; (Revelation 20:4-5)

Yes, yes, we can all read that. But I've never come across anyone who can define what the mark will look like. Josh McDowell, Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins have put their beliefs into prose, but even so, they are just guessing.

As a believer I accept that this scenario will absolutely happen. But I don't use it as a boogeyman to scare people, nor do I use it to manipulate the emotions of anyone.

These people will be saved:

Ephesians 1:3-11English Standard Version (ESV)

Spiritual Blessings in Christ

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[a] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[b] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

 

[Tercon]

Yes, yes, we can all read that.

I am always surprised to encounter believers who the Bible truth is so trivial and common a thing to them.

But I've never come across anyone who can define what the mark will look like. Josh McDowell, Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins have put their beliefs into prose, but even so, they are just guessing.

It doesn't matter whose saying it, just as long as it is true in reality what is being said. I don't

As a believer I accept that this scenario will absolutely happen. But I don't use it as a boogeyman to scare people, nor do I use it to manipulate the emotions of anyone.

I wasn't trying to scare anyone, but I just posted those particular verses because they seem to indicate two kinds of unbelievers and that's all. And if you read something else into it, then that's between you and God's truth. Fight it out with Him.

These people will be saved:

Ephesians 1:3-11English Standard Version (ESV)

Spiritual Blessings in Christ

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[a] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[b] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

All believers were chosen to believe. How do you think they were chosen?

 

[Beloved Daughter]

I am always surprised to encounter believers who the Bible truth is so trivial and common a thing to them.

I consider this to be a personal attack. You should reconsider whether or not it's wise to continue.

It doesn't matter whose saying it, just as long as it is true in reality what is being said. I don't

It does matter. The scripture is from God Almighty, but the exegetes that have come forward and simply speculating.

I wasn't trying to scare anyone, but I just posted those particular verses because they seem to indicate two kinds of unbelievers and that's all. And if you read something else into it, then that's between you and God's truth. Fight it out with Him.

A believer is either chosen per the scriptures, or they are not.

John 6:37-39English Standard Version (ESV)
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

John 6:44English Standard Version (ESV)
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.


Ephesians 1:3-11English Standard Version (ESV)
Spiritual Blessings in Christ
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[a] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Romans 8:28-30English Standard Version (ESV)
28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[a] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Ephesians 2:8-10English Standard Version (ESV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Acts 13:48English Standard Version (ESV)
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Colossians 2:13English Standard Version (ESV)
13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

Titus 3:5English Standard Version (ESV)
5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

1 Peter 1:3English Standard Version (ESV)
Born Again to a Living Hope
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

All believers were chosen to believe. How do you think they were chosen?

The way scripture describes..

 

[Tercon]

I consider this to be a personal attack. You should reconsider whether or not it's wise to continue.

You seem to think everything is a personal attacked, even when someone is merely disagrees with you.

 

[Tercon]

It does matter. The scripture is from God Almighty, but the exegetes that have come forward and simply speculating.

But how do we know the things of God without believing in what, how and why God makes Himself known to us? In other words, what He uses Himself to make the things described in the Bible known and experienced by Him.

A believer is either chosen per the scriptures, or they are not.

They are chosen by believing in the truth and reality of God, that's how Christ knew and experiences the Father. And we know and experience the truth and reality in and with our believing mind and in no other way and means can we know or experience the truth and reality of anything.

John 6:37-39English Standard Version (ESV)
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

John 6:44English Standard Version (ESV)
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.


Ephesians 1:3-11English Standard Version (ESV)
Spiritual Blessings in Christ
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[a] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Romans 8:28-30English Standard Version (ESV)
28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[a] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Ephesians 2:8-10English Standard Version (ESV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Acts 13:48English Standard Version (ESV)
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Colossians 2:13English Standard Version (ESV)
13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

Titus 3:5English Standard Version (ESV)
5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

1 Peter 1:3English Standard Version (ESV)
Born Again to a Living Hope
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

The way scripture describes..

Actually He just uses His and our belief and believing minds to make everything from Him known and realized in us. Here are 245 verses in the NT commanding us to believe, recommending we believe and commending us when we do believe. They lead believers and describe for us Christ's faith and belief, because before Christ believers were under the law. But in believing and trusting in Christ's faith (AKA belief), we are given the same access to the Father as he has with Him.

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (Romans 3:21-23)

We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. (Galatians 2:15-17)

Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. (Galatians 3:21-23)

 

[Woody50]

No, my rebuttal was where I showed how everything you said in response to the Carroll quote was a complete strawman misrepresentation of what he actually said.


You are wrong when you say that QM requires a mind for wave function collapse. In support of this I gave you a direct quote from a physicist disagreeing with you. In support of your own uneducated opinion on QM you've given nothing whatsoever.

Question from the "troll" Nouveau?

Great response. You appeal to authority, though. Fallacious.

I totally get your point, but it's fallacious...just like the boiling point of water to which you appeal to...authority.

C'mon, man! (Biden quote, there.)

You had this guy on the ropes, then you unzipped your fly. Keep it rational.

 

[Whatsisface]

Question from the "troll" Nouveau?

Great response. You appeal to authority, though. Fallacious.

I totally get your point, but it's fallacious...just like the boiling point of water to which you appeal to...authority.

C'mon, man! (Biden quote, there.)

You had this guy on the ropes, then you unzipped your fly. Keep it rational.

Is an appeal to authority always wrong?

 

[Woody50]

Is an appeal to authority always wrong?

Great question.

Not talking about "wrong," but about reason.

It's irrational. If you are making an argument, you fail if you appeal to authority.

Now, in debate, you can do that...but you're just appealing to emotion--NOT logic.

If your opponent is emotional, it's a GREAT play in debate.

It's not rational or logical (sorry...that was redundant), though.

So, to sum up: it's not "wrong," but it makes no sense if you truly want to be "right."

 

[Tetsugaku]

Is an appeal to authority always wrong?

Woody is just trolling. Obviously there is nothing wrong with appealing to an expert on QM when debating QM.

Best to ignore his sad, attention-seeking behaviour.

 

[Woody50]

Woody is just trolling. Obviously there is nothing wrong with appealing to an expert on QM when debating QM.

Nothing wrong, eh?

Only if you don't want to be rational...

I'll explain what that means, Nouveau, if you need help.

Go ahead, respond when you have no answer or cannot think by calling me a troll....another fallacy, by the way.

 

[Whatsisface]

Nothing wrong, eh?

Only if you don't want to be rational...

I'll explain what that means, Nouveau, if you need help.

Go ahead, respond when you have no answer or cannot think by calling me a troll....another fallacy, by the way.

So, if I want to know something about quantum mechanics, I shouldn't go to an expert on quantum mechanics, right?

 

[Woody50]

So, if I want to know something about quantum mechanics, I shouldn't go to an expert on quantum mechanics, right?

No.

If you want to be rational in an argument, you shouldn't use authority as evidence.

You do understand this, right?

 

[Whatsisface]

No.

If you want to be rational in an argument, you shouldn't use authority as evidence.

You do understand this, right?

So, I can go to an expert if I want to find something out about quantum mechanics, but I can't use what I find out in an argument, right?

 

[Woody50]

So, I can go to an expert if I want to find something out about quantum mechanics, but I can't use what I find out in an argument, right?

If you want to be rational, then yes.

We know nothing about said "expert."

Could be Fauci, for all we know. "Expert advice" gives us nothing we can know. It's just another opinion.

If you want to believe that, that's fine. You cannot use it in an argument and be rational.

Didn't you take logic in College?

Don't you understand logic?

Not trying to insult, but this is logic 101, dude.

 

[Whatsisface]

If you want to be rational, then yes.

But what if the expert tells me something like, for example, the Earth orbit's the Sun? I can't use that in an argument?

Didn't you take logic in College?

Don't you understand logic?

Not trying to insult, but this is logic 101, dude.

I understand something of logic. For example, I have heard of the fallacy fallacy, where, just because an argument contains a fallacy doesn't necessarily mean it's false, right?

 

[Woody50]

But what if the expert tells me something like, for example, the Earth orbit's the Sun? I can't use that in an argument?

Does it?

From what do you deduce this? Because others said so? Because you were told? See my point?

Now, there is a difference between a formal and informal argument. The problem is, so many try to start informally and then assert that it's formal.

I understand something of logic. For example, I have heard of the fallacy fallacy, where, just because an argument contains a fallacy doesn't necessarily mean it's false, right?

LOL! Yes! I know what you mean. I can attack the antecedent all I want. It can still be logical reasoning. Most of my calls on irrational reasoning have to do with formal fallacies.

That said, I get your point. Argument from authority is, at best, a weak fallacy. What place does opinion--even an expert's--in science, though? I thought it was all dispassionate? What does science need experts for?

Get my point?

 

[Whatsisface]

Does it?

From what do you deduce this? Because others said so? Because you were told? See my point?

Sort of. But when it comes to quantum mechanics most people have no chance of an appreciation of it's ins and outs, so we have to defer to the experts. If it's an expert worth his/her salt, he/she will say what we know and importantly why, and what we don't and what we can only speculate.

Now, when it comes to a certain poster here making claims about quantum mechanics or a known expert in the field, who is it that's the most rational person to turn to?

LOL! Yes! I know what you mean. I can attack the antecedent all I want. It can still be logical reasoning. Most of my calls on irrational reasoning have to do with formal fallacies.

That said, I get your point. Argument from authority is, at best, a weak fallacy.

Yes.

What place does opinion--even an expert's--in science, though? I thought it was all dispassionate? What does science need experts for?

What does science need experts for? Really?

Get my point?

Not quite, no.

 

[Woody50]

Sort of. But when it comes to quantum mechanics most people have no chance of an appreciation of it's ins and outs, so we have to defer to the experts. If it's an expert worth his/her salt, he/she will say what we know and importantly why, and what we don't and what we can only speculate.

Now, when it comes to a certain poster here making claims about quantum mechanics or a known expert in the field, who is it that's the most rational person to turn to?

Again. Informally, that's fine. Go ahead and say, "So-and-so said this...what do you think?" Totally fine.

Formally? It's a fallacious and irrational argument.

What does science need experts for? Really?

No idea. It's all inductive reasoning and therefore guesswork. Not dismissing it out of hand, but I'm not impressed nor do I worship it as many do here.

Not quite, no.

Hope this helped a bit.

Thanks!