the original Messianic Judaism?

docphin5

Well-known member
if the Qumran community/Essenes thought Messiah would be a Melchizedek, and is God incarnate
then that would fit the premise of the OP
How does that square with what Wise thinks they believed (a far as you understand)?

Does he think the Melchi in Gen 14 is a Christophany?
or think the Essenes thought it was that?
Wise does not stray too far from translating and organizing the Dead Sea Scrolls other than to make the occasional comment pointing out any similarities between the Essenes and Christianity without giving his opinion on the matter. For the most part, he leaves the conclusion up to the reader. He also adds a lot of valuable historical context.
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
Wise does not stray too far from translating and organizing the Dead Sea Scrolls other than to make the occasional comment pointing out any similarities between the Essenes and Christianity without giving his opinion on the matter. For the most part, he leaves the conclusion up to the reader. He also adds a lot of valuable historical context.
that's cool - his book I have is in the queue for me to read
I put his bio up because he seems a legit scholar

the schools I attended were nothing special
 

docphin5

Well-known member
perhaps I have a different book of his - "Dead Sea Scrolls - A New Translation" ...only has 513 pages including the index
I have the the revised edition with copyright 1996, 2005.

if he is using the God of Israel, Messiah, and (a certain) Melchizedek person interchangeably then I can see that
He is not using them interchangeably, although there is an association between them. The God of [nation] Israel is in a state of becoming something, the consummation is the ideal world, aka, “new heaven and earth” populated by the “sons of light” and ruled by “the Prince of Truth”.
if this is Messiah, the final Melchizedek, who is God incarnate, Jesus of Nazareth, then sure
anything else I would question
The Messiah is an Anointing of a soul.
This is my understanding:
When a soul is surrendered to the celestial Messiah, aka, celestial Wisdom, divine Logos, Mind of God, then the Anointing forms an inseparable union, a marriage, with soul, resulting in the soul becoming a Christ figure, in this case, the TOR, but contained within a human body aka, the vessel or “temple” for the spirit to dwell within.
this wouldn't be Messiah, who most likely died in 32ad IMO


"I (Jesus) Am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
“The character and fate of all humankind reside with these [two] spirits…God has appointed these [two] spirits as equals until the last age, and set an everlasting enmity between their divisions...Fierce dispute attends every point of decision, for they can never agree. In his mysterious insight and glorious wisdom God has countenanced an era in which perversity triumphs,
BUT
at the time appointed for visitation He shall destroy such forever…By his truth God shall then purify all human deeds, refine some of humanity so as to extinguish every perverse spirit from the inward parts of the flesh, cleansing from every wicked deed by a Holy Spirit.”

IOW, “I [Prince of Truth] make ALL THINGS new. (Rev 21:5)
lately, I see two types of persons -
those in error and then those who know and are in the Truth
those who are rebels and then those who are/or will be made members of the Family of God

so a person's fate will lie in which of those they are

to me Messiah is a specific Person
I guess you don't hold to the standard Christian views of Jesus, or Messiah in general

Key
1) “God“ here is “the God Most High”.
2) The Prince of Truth is associated with ”a Holy Spirit”.
3) The spirit of perversity “triumphs” in the material world today “until the last age” for some “mysterious insight” (not explained by the TOR).

BUT there comes a day when the Prince of Truth receives the kingdom forever and he gathers the sons of light from the four corners of the earth and “makes all things new.” Thus, he asserts his authority over all things from beginning to end.
(Wise, pg 121, DSC: “Charter of a Jewish Sectarian Association”)
 

docphin5

Well-known member
that's cool - his book I have is in the queue for me to read
I put his bio up because he seems a legit scholar

the schools I attended were nothing special
No worries. My earlier comment had no relevance to your ability to make money or find happiness, but had everything to do with your position on evolution. But I am happy to set that aside in order to talk about the OP.
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
No worries. My earlier comment had no relevance to your ability to make money or find happiness, but had everything to do with your position on evolution. But I am happy to set that aside in order to talk about the OP.
I believe in biological change over time tho :)
but I'm not a Materialist
it doesn't sound like you are either

I'm largely ok with disagreement and meandering topic on threads I start
 

docphin5

Well-known member
lately, I see two types of persons -
those in error and then those who know and are in the Truth
those who are rebels and then those who are/or will be made members of the Family of God

so a person's fate will lie in which of those they are

to me Messiah is a specific Person

I guess you don't hold to the standard Christian views of Jesus, or Messiah in general
Per the Essenes, there would be three Anointed prophets (“Messiahs”) in the “Last Days”. I have posited in other posts that the TOR and Paul are the “two anointed ones” of their respective ages. James is another candidate for consideration. Which is why there was uncertainity over who the actual successor to the TOR was. In another place I demonstrate that GoMark canonizes the epistles of Paul who himself claimed to be the living Christ.

“ I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.” ( Gal 2:20)

But as I explained earlier, it is an Anointing upon a soul, in this case, Paul’s soul, which is why Paul says the same anointing is inside others, if they surrender to truth.

“Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!” (2 cor 13:5)

I reject the the literal meaning of GoMark describing a superman Jesus. A very good explanation can be made for it belonging to the genre of revelatory discourse common around that time.

It is noteworthy, that Paul provides no biographical data for the Jesus described in the Gospels. Instead, Paul’s Jesus or Joshua or Spirit, indwells the ”sons of light”.
 
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American Gothic

Well-known member
Per the Essenes, there would be three Anointed prophets (“Messiahs”) in the “Last Days”
what is this idea based on?
a scroll? a specific work? a specific passage?

there is disagreement between Factions about nature and work of Messiah but
I see your views as highly outside of Jewish expectations and the Biblical promises made to them as a People
if the literalness of Bible is allegorized away, that would happen IMO
 
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American Gothic

Well-known member
I mean sure, David was anointed
an important founder of the Community might have priestly heritage or even past position in Jerusalem
there is the view of a specific passage being a prophecy about Paul

but none of those persons are generally viewed as THE Messiah
(or even one of two - if one should hold to that view based on the dual descriptions of in OT)
"all of scripture is about Messiah" or something to that effect in Rabbinic thought

"Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified." that seems different than what your take is
 
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docphin5

Well-known member
I mean sure, David was anointed
an important founder of the Community might have priestly heritage or even past position in Jerusalem
there is the view of a specific passage being a prophecy about Paul

but none of those persons are generally viewed as THE Messiah
The Messiah is an anointing. It is not a single human being. It is an anointing upon a single race of humans, “the seed”, promised to Abraham. The “sons of light”. It is a single family of humans bound to their God, ie, The God Most High. His Reason, His Spirit, or His Salvation (Yeshua) indwells them. Their kingdom is intelligible, perceived by Mind alone. For they serve the God of knowledge.

It has nothing to do with genetics either. For “not all Israel are descended from Abraham”, says Paul. Scripture supports that assertion. There is a nation Israel and there is a “true-seeing Israel”. It is by the will of him who foreknows and predestines them. IOW, he foreknows those who will choose a pious, virtuous life.

BTW, truth is a virtue, so those who choose tradition, or error over truth are at risk. It is why I will not compromise on the science of evolution, because everything that is true, whether in heaven or on earth, belongs to the Prince of Truth. If we deny what is true on earth then we deny him. We must love truth above all things (among the other virtues), and in doing so, we are born of God. (I am a bit of an idealist, so take that into consideration. Ha ha!)

(or even one of two - if one should hold to that view based on the dual descriptions of in OT)
"all of scripture is about Messiah" or something to that effect in Rabbinic thought

"Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified." that seems different than what your take is
 
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docphin5

Well-known member
nope sorry
yr just Twisting the entire Jewish context of the Bible
There are many anointed humans in the Bible, to include, Cyrus the Great, per Isaiah. You can imagine there only being one human Messiah but scripture says otherwise. Truth is based on evidence and reason, and not on what we want or imagine.

Thus says the Lord to his anointed, to Cyrus . . . 'For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I call you by your name, I name you, though you do not know me" (Isaiah 45:1–4).

It is the anointing upon a single race of humans that accomplishes the will of God Most High.

What does Paul say?

There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.” (Ephesians 4:4)

Peter indicates a single spirit or anointing in the prophets foretelling the coming of Messiah in others. The TOR indicated two more after himself. Paul indicated one more after him. So there are at least three Messiahs or anointed humans in the “Last Days”. There are more anointed humans but a specific number over all upon which time depended. IOW, God would not finish his work until ALL those foreknown by him had presented themselves.

Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories.

It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.” (1 peter 1:10)


The prophets wanted the “sons of God” to be revealed because the promises depended upon all of “true-seeing Israel” being gathered together.
 
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docphin5

Well-known member
what is this idea based on?
a scroll? a specific work? a specific passage?
It is in the dead Sea Scrolls in multiple places. Wise points them out and attributes it to the pesher approach of interpreting the Bible.

This approach to scripture is not unusual to me after reading the Nag Hammadi, Philo, Paul’s epistles, and the Trismegistic literature. some ideas were considered so sacred that they were concealed in allegory or myth to avoid casting pearls before swine.

It is along the lines of this:

”For the lips of a priest should guard knowledge, and people should seek instruction from his mouth, for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.” (Malachi 2:7)

or this

“For the Lord GOD does nothing without revealing his secret
to his servants the prophets.” (Amos 3:7)

The Dead Sea Scrolls speak often of guarding their secret knowledge of scripture, the revealed meaning of the Law, and the TOR was possibly a high priest, so it would be within his prerogative to do so.

The exciting thing for me was to discover that the Essenes were interpreting scripture long before the gnostic Christians, Philo, and Paul. Per Wise, the TOR may have pioneered this approach up to 150 B.C.

there is disagreement between Factions about nature and work of Messiah but
I see your views as highly outside of Jewish expectations and the Biblical promises made to them as a People
if the literalness of Bible is allegorized away, that would happen IMO
 
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Rachel Redux

Active member
There are many anointed humans in the Bible, to include, Cyrus the Great, per Isaiah. You can imagine there only being one human Messiah but scripture says otherwise. Truth is based on evidence and reason, and not on what we want or imagine.
No, truth is not based on evidence and reason!

Proverbs 28:26 — (NKJV)
26 He who trusts in his own heart is a fool,
But whoever walks wisely will be delivered.

Jeremiah 17:9 “The heart is deceitful above all things,
And [a]desperately wicked;
Who can know it?
 

docphin5

Well-known member
No, truth is not based on evidence and reason!

Proverbs 28:26 — (NKJV)
26 He who trusts in his own heart is a fool,
But whoever walks wisely will be delivered.

Jeremiah 17:9 “The heart is deceitful above all things,
And [a]desperately wicked;
Who can know it?
Does that apply to those who have the Mind of Christ?

“But we have the mind of Christ.” (1 cor 2:16)

Did we stop thinking in order to become Christian? Of course not.

How do we “study to show ourself approved” without applying reason to the material we study?

How do we “grow in the knowledge of God” without using our mind?

I suspect that you are like so many on these forums who believe what they imagine is true rather than what is true itself.
 
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Rachel Redux

Active member
Does that apply to those who have the Mind of Christ?

“But we have the mind of Christ.” (1 cor 2:16)

Did we stop thinking in order to become Christian? Of course not.

How do we “study to show ourself approved” without applying reason to the material we study?

How do we “grow in the knowledge of God” without using our mind?

I suspect that you are like so many on these forums who believe what they imagine is true rather than what is true itself.
The heart is not the mind.
Does that apply to those who have the Mind of Christ?

“But we have the mind of Christ.” (1 cor 2:16)

Did we stop thinking in order to become Christian? Of course not.

How do we “study to show ourself approved” without applying reason to the material we study?

How do we “grow in the knowledge of God” without using our mind?

I suspect that you are like so many on these forums who believe what they imagine is true rather than what is true itself.
To trust in "evidence and reason" or human understanding, is a mistake.
Although I don't usually quote Paul, I've noticed that you frequently do.

1 Corinthians 1:27 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. ... But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
 

docphin5

Well-known member
The heart is not the mind.
Then we can both ignore your post (#335j if heart has nothing to do with reason or evidence.

To trust in "evidence and reason" or human understanding, is a mistake.
That is your opinion which refutes itself because you are using your own understanding when you tell others that doing so is a mistake.

Do you even think about what you say before you say it?

Although I don't usually quote Paul, I've noticed that you frequently do.

1 Corinthians 1:27 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. ... But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
Nowhere in this verse does it say not to use reason or evidence.

It says God is wiser and stronger than any human. Duh! It also says the foolish things of the world shame the wise, to which Paul gives the meaning, that is, preaching as a means to salvation appears foolish, nevertheless, is the means God chooses. (1 cor 1:21)

(YLT) “it did please God through the foolishness of the preaching to save those believing.”

Again, nowhere does Paul say, stop thinking, stop learning, stop using your mind, stop applying reason to evidence. The fact that you IMAGINE Paul says that is sad.
 
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Rachel Redux

Active member
Then we can both ignore your post (#335j if heart has nothing to do with reason or evidence.


That is your opinion which refutes itself because you are using your own understanding when you tell others that doing so is a mistake.
[/QUOTE]
No, I'm following YHVH's instruction.
Do you even think about what you say before you say it?


Nowhere in this verse does it say not to use reason or evidence.

It says God is wiser and stronger than any human. Duh! It also says the foolish things of the world shame the wise, to which Paul gives the meaning, that is, preaching as a means to salvation appears foolish, but, nevertheless, is the means God chooses. (1 cor 1:21)

(YLT) “it did please God through the foolishness of the preaching to save those believing.”

Again, nowhere does Paul say, stop thinking, stop learning, stop using your mind. The fact that you IMAGINE Paul says that is sad.
You are clearly into gnosis which is all about secret knowledge. You aren't into thinking and learning. You keep quoting some author who is tempting you with his gnostic teaching and appealing to your desire to feel superior.
I pray that no one reading here is falling for your crap.
 

docphin5

Well-known member
No, I'm following YHVH's instruction.

Do you have a reference to where YHWH tells us not to use reason or evidence? Or is this just you talking?

You are clearly into gnosis
News flash! “Gnosis” is Greek for knowledge, so yes, I prefer knowledge over ignorance.
which is all about secret knowledge.
You mean like this?

“But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.” (1 cor 2:7)

You aren't into thinking and learning.
I will let the readers judge between us who is into thinking and learning.

You keep quoting some author
I am quoting from the Dead Sea Scrolls written up to 200 B.C. What are you quoting from that makes sense?

who is tempting you with his gnostic teaching
“Tempting”? Since when did studying somebodies interpretation of scripture become a temptation? The fact is that there are many corollaries between the New Testament and the Dead Sea Scrolls. I would think a disciple of Christ would want to learn more about those who first wrote about him.

and appealing to your desire to feel superior.
Your personal feelings have nothing to do with me. I recommend seeing a counselor if you are feeling insecure.

I pray that no one reading here is falling for your crap.
or yours.
 
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