The Provisionist Free Creature View Makes God A Slave!

[Sketo]

1. Consider the Provisionist view where parts of God's certain knowledge of the future are determined by something other than God.

In this view, it is posited that God's knowledge of the future is not entirely inherent to God's nature, but rather some aspects of it are influenced or determined by external factors. This implies that God's omniscience is not absolute and that certain aspects of the future are beyond God's control.

2. If any part of God's knowledge is determined by something external and “free” from God, then God's knowledge is not completely independent and omniscient.

If God's knowledge is influenced by external factors, then God's knowledge is contingent upon those factors. This contradicts the concept of God being truly omniscient, which means having all-encompassing, independent, and unchanging knowledge of past, present, and future.

3. If this external thing “freely” determines a future event that God foreknows, then God is forced to “allow” that future event to occur, or else falsify His externally determined knowledge.

If God foreknows a certain future event based on this external determinant, then God must allow that event to happen, or else God's foreknowledge would be proven false. This implies that God is bound by the determined outcome and has no choice but to allow it to unfold, which conflicts with the idea of God's omnipotence and freedom.

4. By God having no other choice than to “allow” that future event to occur, God is effectively bound by the determinations of the external factor, limiting God's sovereignty.

If God is compelled to allow the determined future event to happen, then God's sovereignty is limited. God becomes subject to the workings of the external factor, which reduces God's absolute authority and omnipotence.

5. This Provisionist limitation on God's determination of all things contradicts the concept of God being all-knowing (omniscient) and all-powerful (omnipotent).

The idea that God is bound by external determinants and cannot change the course of certain events undermines the traditional attributes of God being all-knowing and all-powerful. It suggests that God's knowledge and power are subject to the whims of external influences, which is incompatible with the classical understanding of God's nature.

Therefore, the Provisionist view contradicts and challenges the traditional attributes of God as omniscient and omnipotent ultimately forcing God to be a robot/puppet of his creature determined knowledge.

…? CCP ?…

…​

 

[Slyzr]

1. Consider the Provisionist view where parts of God's certain knowledge of the future are determined by something other than God.

In this view, it is posited that God's knowledge of the future is not entirely inherent to God's nature, but rather some aspects of it are influenced or determined by external factors. This implies that God's omniscience is not absolute and that certain aspects of the future are beyond God's control.

2. If any part of God's knowledge is determined by something external and “free” from God, then God's knowledge is not completely independent and omniscient.

If God's knowledge is influenced by external factors, then God's knowledge is contingent upon those factors. This contradicts the concept of God being truly omniscient, which means having all-encompassing, independent, and unchanging knowledge of past, present, and future.

3. If this external thing “freely” determines a future event that God foreknows, then God is forced to “allow” that future event to occur, or else falsify His externally determined knowledge.

If God foreknows a certain future event based on this external determinant, then God must allow that event to happen, or else God's foreknowledge would be proven false. This implies that God is bound by the determined outcome and has no choice but to allow it to unfold, which conflicts with the idea of God's omnipotence and freedom.

4. By God having no other choice than to “allow” that future event to occur, God is effectively bound by the determinations of the external factor, limiting God's sovereignty.

If God is compelled to allow the determined future event to happen, then God's sovereignty is limited. God becomes subject to the workings of the external factor, which reduces God's absolute authority and omnipotence.

5. This Provisionist limitation on God's determination of all things contradicts the concept of God being all-knowing (omniscient) and all-powerful (omnipotent).

The idea that God is bound by external determinants and cannot change the course of certain events undermines the traditional attributes of God being all-knowing and all-powerful. It suggests that God's knowledge and power are subject to the whims of external influences, which is incompatible with the classical understanding of God's nature.

Therefore, the Provisionist view contradicts and challenges the traditional attributes of God as omniscient and omnipotent ultimately forcing God to be a robot/puppet of his creature determined knowledge.

…? CCP ?…

…​

no ........

just no.

Get off your therefore ...... this is correct or that is correct.

God is not a puppet .......

I will have mercy on whom I have mercy.

 

[Sketo]

no ........

just no.

Get off your therefore ...... this is correct or that is correct.

God is not a puppet .......

I will have mercy on whom I have mercy.

I agree with scriptures statement “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy”…

But on Provisionism God’s foreknowledge of whom he will have mercy is already set in eternity past. How can God have mercy on anyone other than those he foreknew he will have mercy on?

You see the problem is God did not determine the individuals he will have mercy on in the Provisionist view. On Provisionism man determined who God will have mercy on, and God is bound to that predetermined foreknowledge with no other choice. God must “have mercy” on them or falsify the foreknowledge by going back on his word.

God has no other choice on Provisionism.

On Calvinism God freely determined the individuals he will have mercy on and he was free to have determined differently if he had wanted to.

…

 

[fltom]

I agree with scriptures statement “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy”…

But on Provisionism God’s foreknowledge of whom he will have mercy is already set in eternity past. How can God have mercy on anyone other than those he foreknew he will have mercy on?

You see the problem is God did not determine the individuals he will have mercy on in the Provisionist view. On Provisionism man determined who God will have mercy on, and God is bound to that predetermined foreknowledge with no other choice. God must “have mercy” on them or falsify the foreknowledge by going back on his word.

God has no other choice on Provisionism.

On Calvinism God freely determined the individuals he will have mercy on and he was free to have determined differently if he had wanted to.

…

What a confused mess

God himself set the conditions upon which he will show mercy.

For you to say

You see the problem is God did not determine the individuals he will have mercy on in the Provisionist view

is certain confusion.

He has mercy on those who meet his criteria.

 

[Sketo]

What a confused mess

Yes the logical conclusion of Provisionism's claim that "future free creatures" predetermined God's foreknowledge is a confused mess.

God himself set the conditions upon which he will show mercy.

Not on Provisionism.

On Provisionism God did not determine his individule foreknowledge of anything "himself"...

On Provisionism God's knowledge was eternally set in stone by "future free creatures" and He played no part in determining his own foreknowledge therefore the God of Provisionism was never free to have mercy on whom he wills... no... PGod was forced by the eternal foreknowledge to have mercy on whom man wills.

Remember man determined God's individule foreknowledge on Provisionism, and God had no other choice but to maintain his infallible foreknowledge by doing what man predetermined for him. The only other option for God was to choose to falsify that knowledge... but Provisionism also denies that God can falsify his own knowledge predetermined by man.

Provisionism is stuck with a preprogrammed God that has no other choice but to do according to the foreknowledge that was determined by man.

...

 

[Kampioen]

Yes the logical conclusion of Provisionism's claim that "future free creatures" predetermined God's foreknowledge is a confused mess.

Tell me how that is logical to you? How can man create his own future before he is born?

Not on Provisionism.

On Provisionism God did not determine his individule foreknowledge of anything "himself"...

On Provisionism God's knowledge was eternally set in stone by "future free creatures" and He played no part in determining his own foreknowledge therefore the God of Provisionism was never free to have mercy on whom he wills... no... PGod was forced by the eternal foreknowledge to have mercy on whom man wills.

God's foreknowledge is merely equivalent to a lucky guess ie miracle where God cannot err. God is miraculous. That is the logical conclusion.

Remember man determined God's individule foreknowledge on Provisionism, and God had no other choice but to maintain his infallible foreknowledge by doing what man predetermined for him. The only other option for God was to choose to falsify that knowledge... but Provisionism also denies that God can falsify his own knowledge predetermined by man.

Foreknowledge/omniscience is not something that God or anyone chooses. It is one of His attributes like omnipotence and omnipresence.

Provisionism is stuck with a preprogrammed God that has no other choice but to do according to the foreknowledge that was determined by man.

The preprogrammed God is your pantheistic view where God has no other choice but to make us think we have other choices and then blaming us for it.

 

[fltom]

Yes the logical conclusion of Provisionism's claim that "future free creatures" predetermined God's foreknowledge is a confused mess.



Not on Provisionism.

Sorry that is a rather cleless remark

On Provisionism God did not determine his individule foreknowledge of anything "himself"...

Your view is of a weak God who can only know what he himself determines

He lacks the omniscience to know what a free creature might do

Further your claim denies God determined the grounds upon which he would save.

On Provisionism God's knowledge was eternally set in stone by "future free creatures" and He played no part in determining his own foreknowledge therefore the God of Provisionism was never free to have mercy on whom he wills... no... PGod was forced by the eternal foreknowledge to have mercy on whom man wills.

Remember man determined God's individule foreknowledge on Provisionism, and God had no other choice but to maintain his infallible foreknowledge by doing what man predetermined for him. The only other option for God was to choose to falsify that knowledge... but Provisionism also denies that God can falsify his own knowledge predetermined by man.

Provisionism is stuck with a preprogrammed God that has no other choice but to do according to the foreknowledge that was determined by man.

...

Duh, again it was God who set the conditions upon which he would save and he did so knowing who would fulfill that criteria so your claim of preprogrammed is rather bizarre.

 

[Sketo]

Duh, again it was God who set the conditions upon which he would save and he did so knowing who would fulfill that criteria so your claim of preprogrammed is rather bizarre.

Now you are talking like a Calvinist.

When did God determine/“set” the conditions?

See, on Provisionism, “the conditions” are already part of God’s eternal foreknowledge. Provisionism does not allow for God to determine his own foreknowledge of anything… much less “the conditions” remember?

…

 

[Kampioen]

Now you are talking like a Calvinist.

When did God determine/“set” the conditions?

See, on Provisionism, “the conditions” are already part of God’s eternal foreknowledge. Provisionism does not allow for God to determine his own foreknowledge of anything… much less “the conditions” remember?

Nobody determines God's foreknowledge. God just knows it. But God does determine the conditions but not the libertarian choice as to whether to meet those conditions.

 

[CookedGoose]

He has mercy on those who meet his criteria.

In other words He has mercy when it is "merited".

Even though with Jacob and Esau it was before they had done either good or evil.
Doesn't make sense Tom.

 

[Sketo]

You can’t see your own inconsistency…

Nobody determines God's foreknowledge.

?

But God does determine the conditions…

But wouldn’t “the conditions” already be part of the “foreknowledge” ?Nobody determined??

You have God determining part of what you claim “Nobody determined”!

…

 

[fltom]

In other words He has mercy when it is "merited".

Even though with Jacob and Esau it was before they had done either good or evil.
Doesn't make sense Tom.

Nope

Mercy is not merited

Ps It's not salvation

 

[fltom]

Now you are talking like a Calvinist.

Nope
It was God who set the conditions upon which he would save and he did so knowing who would fulfill that criteria so your claim of preprogrammed is rather bizarre.

1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV 1900) — 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

When did God determine/“set” the conditions?

See, on Provisionism, “the conditions” are already part of God’s eternal foreknowledge. Provisionism does not allow for God to determine his own foreknowledge of anything… much less “the conditions” remember?

…

Still nonsensical

1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV 1900) — 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

It was God's set plan.

You are not making much sense.

 

[Sketo]

@Reformedguy

It was God who set the conditions upon which he would save and he did so knowing (individules) who would fulfill that criteria so your claim of preprogrammed is rather bizarre.

?God “set the conditions” after already “knowing who would fulfill that criteria”…

Doesn’t that also mean God knew who wouldn’t “fulfill” that criteria before he “set the condition”?

How is this not Provisionist Predestination to hell?

…

 

[Kampioen]

You can’t see your own inconsistency…

?

But wouldn’t “the conditions” already be part of the “foreknowledge” ?Nobody determined??

You have God determining part of what you claim “Nobody determined”!

Yes. They are God's rules and intentions. But nobody "pre"determined foreknowledge itself. God just knows it. The libertarian choices between God and man determine it along the way.

 

[Sketo]

Yes. They are God's rules and intentions. But nobody "pre"determined foreknowledge itself. God just knows it. The libertarian choices between God and man determine it along the way.

Did God determine his own knowledge of these “rules and intentions”?

Or

We’re these “rules and intentions” already part of the “foreknowledge” ?Nobody determined??

…

 

[Kampioen]

Did God determine his own knowledge of these “rules and intentions”?

Or

We’re these “rules and intentions” already part of the “foreknowledge” ?Nobody determined??

God knows what He does, so *Yes* He determined that. And, Yes, God's rules and intentions are in God's foreknowledge. But His knowledge of the future is independent of His or man's determinations. God's foreknowledge and eventual outcome are like tossing two dice that incidently turn out doubles, ie without influencing each other, ie by miracle, ie an attribute of God like omnipotence and omnipresence.

 

[fltom]

@Reformedguy


?God “set the conditions” after already “knowing who would fulfill that criteria”…

sorry, you have provided no evidence for that claim, and it is nothing but a gratuitous assumption

Doesn’t that also mean God knew who wouldn’t “fulfill” that criteria before he “set the condition”?

How is this not Provisionist Predestination to hell?

…

Again you have presented no evidence God knew who wouldn’t “fulfill” that criteria before he “set the condition”

 

[Sketo]

?God “set the conditions” after already “knowing who would fulfill that criteria”…

sorry, you have provided no evidence for that claim, and it is nothing but a gratuitous assumption

It’s not my claim. It’s the logical conclusion of your claim:

It was God who set the conditions upon which he would save and he did so knowing who would fulfill that criteria so your claim of preprogrammed is rather bizarre.

Your words “he did so knowing who”

…

---

Then fltom contradicts himself implying God didn’t know who wouldn’t:

Doesn’t that also mean God knew who wouldn’t “fulfill” that criteria before he “set the condition”?

How is this not Provisionist Predestination to hell?

Again you have presented no evidence God knew who wouldn’t “fulfill” that criteria before he “set the condition”

So fltom admits on Provisionism God did not know who wouldn’t “fulfill”…

…

 

[Sketo]

His knowledge of the future is independent of His or man's determinations.

And on your view this “independent knowledge” would also include God’s on “future” actions correct?

You have God‘s knowledge of his own future actions “independent of His determinations”

Now you have neither God nor man having any other choice but to do what the “independent knowledge” has determined for both of their future.

You have made immutable “independent knowledge” the puppet master of the future of both God and man such that they had no choice in determining the future to be different.

…