The unreasonableness of anti-Calvinists

[Theo1689]

There is a discussion presently on this board which demonstrates how unreasonable anti-Calvinists are, and demonstrating that they are far more interested in "arguing" (for the sake of argument) than they are in finding common ground and agreement.

It is claimed by anti-Calvinists that "Calvinism makes us not responsible for our sins".

1) Nothing in the Bible teaches that.
2) Nothing in any Calvinst creed or confession teaches that.
3) Nothing in any Calvinist theology text teaches that.
4) No Calvinist claims that we are not responsible for our sins.

And so, when Calvinists say, "Yes, of course we are responsible for our sins", the HONEST critic would respond with, "I'm glad to hear that. We agree that man is responsible for his sins."

But that's not what we get.

What we get instead is, "No, you do SO believe you're not responsible for your sins. Don't tell me what you believe, because *I* get to tell you what you believe, and what *I* tell you that you believe will be consistent with what I'm arguing against, because I love arguing this, and I don't want my argument to be invalid."

 

[shroom]

There is a discussion presently on this board which demonstrates how unreasonable anti-Calvinists are, and demonstrating that they are far more interested in "arguing" (for the sake of argument) than they are in finding common ground and agreement.

It is claimed by anti-Calvinists that "Calvinism makes us not responsible for our sins".

1) Nothing in the Bible teaches that.
2) Nothing in any Calvinst creed or confession teaches that.
3) Nothing in any Calvinist theology text teaches that.
4) No Calvinist claims that we are not responsible for our sins.

Do Calvinists think their sins were predetermined? It seems that at least some Calvinists on this forum do..

And so, when Calvinists say, "Yes, of course we are responsible for our sins", the HONEST critic would respond with, "I'm glad to hear that. We agree that man is responsible for his sins."

But that's not what we get.

What we get instead is, "No, you do SO believe you're not responsible for your sins. Don't tell me what you believe, because *I* get to tell you what you believe, and what *I* tell you that you believe will be consistent with what I'm arguing against, because I love arguing this, and I don't want my argument to be invalid."

Did God predetermine that people would sin? Did God predetermine that I would not be a Calvinist? Do I have any choice in what I believe?

 

[Theo1689]

Do Calvinists think their sins were predetermined?

The Bible (eg. Gen. 50:20, Isa. 10:5-7, Acts 4:27-28, etc.) teaches that they are.

But it is ALSO true that we are responsible for our sins.

It seems that at least some Calvinists on this forum do..

I don't care what "some Calvinists" believe.
I only care what the BIBLE teaches.

Did God predetermine that people would sin?

The Bible (eg. Gen. 50:20, Isa. 10:5-7, Acts 4:27-28, etc.) teaches that they are.

But it is ALSO true that we are responsible for our sins.

Did God predetermine that I would not be a Calvinist?

I believe so, yes.
But that's okay... Calvinism is not a requirement for salvation.

Do I have any choice in what I believe?

Do you feel that any of your choices were "forced"?
Have you chosen things that you didn't WANT to choose?

 

[Theo1689]

Do Calvinists think their sins were predetermined? It seems that at least some Calvinists on this forum do..


Did God predetermine that people would sin? Did God predetermine that I would not be a Calvinist? Do I have any choice in what I believe?

So let me get this straight...

1) You presumably believe we are responsible for our sins;
2) You want us to believe that we are responsible for our sins;
3) We actually DO believe that we are responsible for our sins.
4) So you seem to be trying to convince us that we SHOULDN'T believe that we are responsible for our sins.

You are proving my point for me.
You don't want us to believe it, because it destroys your argument.

 

[CookedGoose]

Do Calvinists think their sins were predetermined?

Yes, because the only alternative is that God is not omniscient, doesn't have infallible foreknowledge
In other words He doesn't know anymore than we know.
It means He is not outside of time, is not everlasting etc....
And this conflicts with too much scripture.

Did God predetermine that people would sin?

Yes, He did this when He cursed humanity with a sin nature.
If a person wants to argue the fact before the fall that's fine, because those details aren't given in scripture.

 

[fltom]

There is a discussion presently on this board which demonstrates how unreasonable anti-Calvinists are, and demonstrating that they are far more interested in "arguing" (for the sake of argument) than they are in finding common ground and agreement.

It is claimed by anti-Calvinists that "Calvinism makes us not responsible for our sins".

1) Nothing in the Bible teaches that.
2) Nothing in any Calvinst creed or confession teaches that.
3) Nothing in any Calvinist theology text teaches that.
4) No Calvinist claims that we are not responsible for our sins.

And so, when Calvinists say, "Yes, of course we are responsible for our sins", the HONEST critic would respond with, "I'm glad to hear that. We agree that man is responsible for his sins."

But that's not what we get.

What we get instead is, "No, you do SO believe you're not responsible for your sins. Don't tell me what you believe, because *I* get to tell you what you believe, and what *I* tell you that you believe will be consistent with what I'm arguing against, because I love arguing this, and I don't want my argument to be invalid."

Can you answer the question

Does your theology teach God determines your thoughts, desires , will and deeds?

That the bible does not teach that man are not responsible for their sins i agree.

That Calvinist so not claim we are not responsible for our sins I also agree.

but Calvinist cannot explain how it is God determines all of man's thoughts, desires, will and deeds and not be responsible

and simply punt to mystery as there is no reasonable explanation as does john calvin

and others

God never does evil Himself. He stands behind it indirectly, but He directly stands behind good. The Lord can never be blamed for evil, but evil does not take place apart from His decree. We cannot finally explain how this can be, but the Lord's ability to ordain evil without being morally responsible for it shows His greatness.

Evil in God's Providential Rule - Ligonier Ministries​

www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/evil-gods-providential-rule/

Calvinist want to have their cake and eat it too

 

[shroom]

The Bible (eg. Gen. 50:20, Isa. 10:5-7, Acts 4:27-28, etc.) teaches that they are.

But it is ALSO true that we are responsible for our sins.

If our sins were predetermined, how can we be held responsible for them?

I don't care what "some Calvinists" believe.
I only care what the BIBLE teaches.

Those "some Calvinists" say the same thing.

The Bible (eg. Gen. 50:20, Isa. 10:5-7, Acts 4:27-28, etc.) teaches that they are.

But it is ALSO true that we are responsible for our sins.

If our sins were predetermined, how can we be held responsible for them?

I believe so, yes.

If Calvinism is the truth, why would God predetermine that I not be a Calvinist? He not only wants everyone to be saved, but also to come to the knowledge of the truth.

But that's okay... Calvinism is not a requirement for salvation.

Agreed.

Do you feel that any of your choices were "forced"?

To the best of my knowledge, no.

Have you chosen things that you didn't WANT to choose?

I have chosen to do things that I did not particularly want to do. In those cases I set aside what I wanted to do and tried to do what is right.

 

[shroom]

So let me get this straight...

1) You presumably believe we are responsible for our sins;
2) You want us to believe that we are responsible for our sins;
3) We actually DO believe that we are responsible for our sins.
4) So you seem to be trying to convince us that we SHOULDN'T believe that we are responsible for our sins.

You are proving my point for me.
You don't want us to believe it, because it destroys your argument.

If our sins were predetermined, how can we be held responsible for them?

 

[shroom]

Yes, because the only alternative is that God is not omniscient, doesn't have infallible foreknowledge

I do not believe God has absolute foreknowledge.

In other words He doesn't know anymore than we know.

Of course He does.

It means He is not outside of time,

Right.

is not everlasting etc....

No, God is immortal.

And this conflicts with too much scripture.

I don't think so.

Yes, He did this when He cursed humanity with a sin nature.

Our sin nature is a result of Adam's sin. When Adam sinned, his nature changed. He became crafty, like the devil.
I blame the devil for our sin nature, not God.

If a person wants to argue the fact before the fall that's fine, because those details aren't given in scripture.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

I do not believe God has absolute foreknowledge.

Why not? What future things might he not know?

 

[shroom]

Why not? What future things might he not know?

Every decision that free-will beings will make before those decisions are made.

God brought the animals to Adam "to see what he would call them."
In Genesis 6, God was sorry that He had made man.
When Abraham was about to kill Isaac, God intervened and said "now I know..."
God got angry with Moses when he kept coming up with excuse after excuse as to why Moses shouldn't be the one to return to Egypt.
God had Samuel anoint Saul as king, but then later regretted it and chose David.
God had Isaiah tell Hezekiah that he was "about to die." Hezekiah prayed, and God gave him 15 more years.

God will bring His prophecies to pass because He will cause them to happen, not because God lives "outside of time" and can "see" the future.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

Every decision that free-will beings will make before those decisions are made.

God brought the animals to Adam "to see what he would call them."
In Genesis 6, God was sorry that He had made man.
When Abraham was about to kill Isaac, God intervened and said "now I know..."
God got angry with Moses when he kept coming up with excuse after excuse as to why Moses shouldn't be the one to return to Egypt.
God had Samuel anoint Saul as king, but then later regretted it and chose David.
God had Isaiah tell Hezekiah that he was "about to die." Hezekiah prayed, and God gave him 15 more years.

Oh. So...open theism then. Ok.

How does prophecy fit into your thinking, since God is literally telling us what will happen, via the actions of "free-will beings"? How can he know what the future will hold when it involves such free will?

 

[shroom]

Oh. So...open theism then. Ok.

Yes.

How does prophecy fit into your thinking, since God is literally telling us what will happen, via the actions of "free-will beings"? How can he know what the future will hold when it involves such free will?

I added another sentence to my post while you were responding...

I will add that there are some things with open theism that are difficult, and I do not have a good explanation... But in general, open theism makes the most sense to me. God genuinely responds to the things His created beings do.

 

[Howie]

Calvinist want to have their cake and eat it too

Speak for yourself, Tom.

Calvinist, or not, everyone I know wants to know the truth.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

Yes.


I added another sentence to my post while you were responding...

I will add that there are some things with open theism that are difficult, and I do not have a good explanation... But in general, open theism makes the most sense to me. God genuinely responds to the things His created beings do.

Oops, sorry I replied to you before you changed your post and completed your thought. But that was a helpful addition.

BUT...it kind of forces this question upon us: If God "causes them to pass" (prophecies), how does He do that when they entail the actions of free-will creatures?

For example, Jesus was born in Bethlehem according to the prophecy in Micah 5:2. Ok if that's true, think about what needed to happen in order for that to be fulfilled. The book of Micah was written in the 8th century BC - so like 800+ years before Christ. If we think of a generation in those days being 20 years, that's 40 generations. Think of all the free-will decisions that had to be made in order for the very specific line of David to culminate in Mary giving birth in Bethlehem. I mean, they aren't even IN Bethlehem if it wasn't for the census under Caesar Augustus. Caesar was his own "sovereign", in that he was the ruler of the Roman Empire. No human "made" him do anything. It was his choice to have the census done. God made the prophecy 800 years before this time, and the Roman Empire hadn't even begun to exist yet, but the census was what made Mary and Joseph go to Bethlehem.

Think of all the billions and trillions of free-will choices that had to have been made between the prophecy in Micah 5:2 and Jesus being born in Bethlehem. How could God have just "caused this to pass" without orchestrating all those free-will decisions?

So either God KNEW what would happen (foreknowledge) OR God violated the free-will of thousands and thousands of people, over trillions of decisions, in order to "cause" this event to pass some 800 years later. Any one of billions of decisions would have thrown this whole thing off unless God determined to make this happen.

 

[Theo1689]

Speak for yourself, Tom.

Calvinist, or not, everyone I know wants to know the truth.

Sadly, anti-Calvinists have this in common with KJV-Onlys....

They believe that anyone who disagrees with their views must be part of some master "conspiracy", and is not actually interested in the truth.

 

[Kampioen]

So let me get this straight...

1) You presumably believe we are responsible for our sins;
2) You want us to believe that we are responsible for our sins;
3) We actually DO believe that we are responsible for our sins.
4) So you seem to be trying to convince us that we SHOULDN'T believe that we are responsible for our sins.

You are proving my point for me.
You don't want us to believe it, because it destroys your argument.

I would say Calvinists actually express libertarian free will and don't know it. That explains the responsibility for sin.

But the predeterminist doctrine suggests that the previous domino determines of your choice rather than being free. A prearranged unconditional domino effect stemming from God.

 

[shroom]

So either God KNEW what would happen (foreknowledge) OR God violated the free-will of thousands and thousands of people, over trillions of decisions, in order to "cause" this event to pass some 800 years later. Any one of billions of decisions would have thrown this whole thing off unless God determined to make this happen.

No, God does not violate people's free will. As you noted, God is a masterful orchestrater. There is none better. He works within people's free will choices, inspires and motivates people and circumstances/situations, and brings what has been prophesied to pass.

 

[shroom]

Sadly, anti-Calvinists have this in common with KJV-Onlys....

They believe that anyone who disagrees with their views must be part of some master "conspiracy", and is not actually interested in the truth.

Not all of us. You have said you're interested in the truth. I have no reason not to believe you.

 

[fltom]

Speak for yourself, Tom.

Calvinist, or not, everyone I know wants to know the truth.

The issue is wanting to have your cake and eat it too

The Calvinist wants to have God determine everything but then wants to absolve him of any demerit