bigthinker
Well-known member
Oh good, I was very concerned.You demonstrate it so no worries, I don't need you to affirm it.
;-)
Oh good, I was very concerned.You demonstrate it so no worries, I don't need you to affirm it.
That's cool. I'm not concerned about it.Oh good, I was very concerned.
;-)
I don't know for certain.This thread has turned into what you have described. What should be the appropriate Christian response?
I disagree. My position is that you are Tetsugaku.Hi, I'm Tesugaku.
I already did that.Questions you've left unanswered:
-Spiritual -do you have a definition of that word? I doubt it.
It's word you think you know the meaning of but I bet you cannot and will not offer either an explanation nor a definition of the word.
Why would you expect an emotionally charged and determined person to be rational? Hi, I'm Tesugaku. You've now met a rational unbeliever who is neither emotionally charged nor determined. The Bible says many things both for and against engaging unbelievers (e.g. 1 Peter 3:15). Note also that religious texts (especially false ones) are incentivized to discourage opening themselves or their followers up to criticism.
Is there good outwards objective evidence that the universe is in fact a creation? In the absence of such evidence for creation or the gospel, no rational person should believe it. By what objective means can a rational person determine that their guilt has anything to do with sin or the Holy Spirit, as opposed to being a natural and evolved emotion resulting from them violating a cultural or moral norm?
I didn't ask you.That's cool. I'm not concerned about it.
being an atheist merely means to lack belief in gods.“Supposing there was no intelligence behind the universe, no creative mind.
In that case, nobody designed my brain for the purpose of thinking. It is merely
that when the atoms inside my skull happen, for physical or chemical reasons,
to arrange themselves in a certain way, this gives me, as a by-product, the
sensation I call thought. But, if so, how can I trust my own thinking to be true?
It's like upsetting a milk jug and hoping that the way it splashes itself will give
you a map of London. But if I can't trust my own thinking, of course I can't
trust the arguments leading to Atheism, and therefore have no reason to be an
Atheist, or anything else. Unless I believe in God, I cannot believe in thought:
so I can never use thought to disbelieve in God.”__C.S.Lewis
You have any thoughts regarding that Lewis quote up there?
Btw, I did not want the quote to be bolded and I tried to get the bold out with no success.
Best
JAG
[]
You didn't.I already did that.
um, the definition part was lacking.What did you find lacking in it?
I don't think you know what it is and I'm fairly certain you can't (and won't) describe it in any detail other than with undefined, vague words.Or is it that you just don't believe there is a spiritual realm?
What a terrible argument from Lewis, naïve would be a kind way of putting it.“Supposing there was no intelligence behind the universe, no creative mind.
In that case, nobody designed my brain for the purpose of thinking. It is merely
that when the atoms inside my skull happen, for physical or chemical reasons,
to arrange themselves in a certain way, this gives me, as a by-product, the
sensation I call thought. But, if so, how can I trust my own thinking to be true?
It's like upsetting a milk jug and hoping that the way it splashes itself will give
you a map of London. But if I can't trust my own thinking, of course I can't
trust the arguments leading to Atheism, and therefore have no reason to be an
Atheist, or anything else. Unless I believe in God, I cannot believe in thought:
so I can never use thought to disbelieve in God.”__C.S.Lewis
I know from experience that it is fruitless to persuade determined unbelievers that the gospel is true.
There are things God will not do. And one of those is he does not make people convert against their will. There comes the time for every Christ rejecter that he stops striving with them and turns them, irretrievably, over to their unbelief. So it's not a matter of faith. It's a matter of how long God wants us Christians to strive with the unbelieving.Oh ye of little faith! Is anything impossible for your God?
In the context of the whole counsel of God we know that prayer must be within God's will.What about prayer? Have you ever prayed with another person and agreed in Jesus' name? What does scripture say about that?
That makes you an agnostic, not an atheist.But I suspect you misinterpret my determination. I'm determined to find factual truth.
Outside of the testimony of creation, the only evidence that God gives that the gospel is true is the voice of the Holy Spirit convicting you in your heart about sin, your guilt as a sinner, forgiveness of that sin, and the judgment to come. The word of faith spoken by the Holy Spirit is the evidence of that which you can not see. But if you reject the testimony of God you are rejecting the only evidence that he gives to know the gospel truth.I'm an atheist because of the lack of evidence that Christianity is true, not because I want to be an atheist.
The Biblical counsel I shared is for hardened Christ rejecters to continue to be what they are to the very end. They are what they are, and that's just the way it is. The purpose for which we are subjected to this life goes on.All that stuff about you say about atheists loving the darkness and their sin and whatnot is complete B.S. -you're just lying to yourself.
However,
Is that really the best counsel you have? lol.
You won't get in the boat. That's the problem. Even though the captain of the boat has sent convincing word that he is able and ready to save you. The unbeliever preferring instead to tread water...because they don't like what they have to confess to get in the boat, and the rules they must submit to in the boat. Ultimately, the rejection of salvation demonstrates that you have no potential within you, when persuaded and enabled, to want to put your faith in the boat that's trying to save you.It's as if you're in a lifeboat and I'm drowning in the water. Presumably you have the room and means in the boat -or your God does. But you rationalize that the reason I'm drowning is because I want to be and because I don't have to potential to survive.
Yes.So your best advice is that I just keep swimming.
God does not make anyone get in the ark, I mean boat.When considering the fact that you have God almighty on your side, it's kind of a jerk move.
The problem is not God, it's the belief in God. You believe in something that is utterly worthless if your best counsel is to "move on".
So he should save you against your will?I don't think there's a better way to display the complete and absolute emptiness of your beliefs.
That makes you an agnostic, not an atheist. There's hope for the agnostic who's still interested in the truth.Why don't you just share what you think because there's no difference.
Also, probably not relevant since I'm not "hardened"; I'm a skeptic who is interested in factual truth.
The redemption and salvation of God is not worthless.If that is true, then your God is worthless.
You asked me for the meaning of a phrase, not a word - "spiritual realm".um, the definition part was lacking.
You used the word in the definition.
I think you just want to deny the existence of spirits in a spiritual realm.I don't think you know what it is and I'm fairly certain you can't (and won't) describe it in any detail other than with undefined, vague words.
But I'm happy to have you prove me wrong.
Let's start with some basic facts.being an atheist merely means to lack belief in gods.
We are humans, with brains who can think.
We lack reasons to think there is a supernatural intelligence that exists in some way beyond our understanding.
Lewis' reasoning here is like seeing a shadow and concluding the source must be the sun.
When it could be a lamp or a flashlight or any other light sources.
And we have a decent understanding of how living things can gradually become more complex and unlike non living manufactured objects, a designer or intelligence isn't necessary. At least so far there's no evidence.
I think Lewis was trying to make sense of the world the best he could.
It's a funny thing, posting on the internet.I don't know for certain.
It is debatable.
I once read a fellow Christian's post where he said "I learned my name-calling from
Jesus and he then quoted Jesus in Matthew 23 "You snakes? You vipers. You hypocrites
how will you escape being condemned to Hell?"
And he could have quoted other New Testament passages where Jesus and His
Apostles used harsh language when talking to the wicked.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
On the other hand you can find New Testament passages that appear to say we ought
not to take a harsh tone when talking to the wicked.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
So?
So each Christian will have to decide for himself how harsh to get when talking to the wicked.
As for me? I've been on the web a long time and I've learned over the decades NOT
to get involved in heated exchanges with either the elect or the reprobate. My reason
is that heated exchanges can NOT produce what I want to be a part of producing-
which is Christianizing the world, that is, successfully carrying out Jesus' Great Commission
to Christianize the world BEFORE He comes back.
Here is what I am interested in being a part of: .....↓
Great Christian Crusades that not only increase the size of Jesus' Christian Church
but that also create more and more Christian Conservative VOTERS.
We Christians are in this War For The World as the centuries and millenniums roll along.
Yes, I am interested in the Christian Church winning The War For The World ---
and I don't see how using insults against the unbelievers in threads
will make a significant contribution to Jesus winning The War For The World.
Best
JAG
[]
lol.Let's start with some basic facts.
We are all different.
We are individuals.
We have certain rights.
For example, You have the right to believe the earth is flat.
You have the right to believe that somehow 2 + 2 can = 7
You have the right to lock down om an academic position.
You have the right to not give a rat's butt about what I believe.
I too have all those rights.
And here is my LOCKED-DOWN position:
I am locked down on the fact that:
- There Is No Such Thing As An Atheist
My view is that all men KNOW there is a God that created them. I have strong Biblical reasons for believing this to be true. Here they are , , , Romans 1:19-20 Romans 1:19-20 says "since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation...forums.carm.org
Best
JAG
[]
How does your third choice prove my “entire Christian belief system false?”
In your own words, explain what you think my entire Christian belief system is so I can see if you really understand what I believe for you to have proven it false. I don’t see any connection between your point and how it makes my entire Christian belief system false.
The Freewill Defense is the cornerstone of most christians belief. I don't know if you have ever heard of it or believe it, regardless, as I quoted you previously, you do use the FWD, wether you know it or not. If the FWD is false christianity is false. If the FWD is false god has no sufficient reason for allowing human suffering, this contradicts his alleged moral goodness, and no such god exists. I don't need to know your entire christian belief system. All I need to do is prove your god cannot exist. I could have made "Argument 11: Only Freewill Good Is Logical Possibility By John Mackie" into a "god doesn't exist" argument. In hindsight I should have. But anyway, here is the supplemental argument. It is fairly obvious.How does your third choice prove my “entire Christian belief system false?”
It can work out that way. But in order for the sparks to fly, one hasIt's a funny thing, posting on the internet.
I have literally had to do Matt 10:14 in person, it was far more traumatic than here. This here is nothing.
It's instructive when I told them I've banned atheists, not here though. Immediately they became unglued.
When Christian meets atheist on the Internet, a bomb will go off, it just does. When you tell someone about hell, watch the sparks fly, with insults aplenty. The message guarantees the reaction, despite some Christians wishing otherwise.
In post #299 you askedI addressed all of these things. Which part did you not understand? And, more importantly, how does all this show my entire belief system to be false?
if you are asking me what the point is it seems unlikely you addressed my argument.What's your point, again?