Thought Experiment

C

Crazy Ivan

Well-known member
Jones is sitting in a chair in a room. There is a single door that is closed, and Jones does not know whether the door is locked or unlocked. Jones will only try to unlock the door if he wishes to leave, but if he wishes to stay, he will not try to unlock the door, forever not knowing whether the door is actually locked or not. A locked door means he cannot physically leave the room, and an unlocked door means he can physically leave the room. I will paint several scenarios.

Scenario #1 - Jones wishes to leave the room, and the door is locked. Is Jones "free" to leave the room, yes or no?

Scenario #2 - Jones does not wish to leave the room, and the door is locked. Is Jones "free" to stay in the room, yes or no?

Scenario #3 - Jones wishes to leave the room, and the door is unlocked. Is Jones "free" to leave the room, yes or no?

Scenario #4 - Jones does not wish to leave the room, and the door is unlocked. Is Jones "free" to stay in the room, yes or no?
 
Crazy Ivan said:
Jones is sitting in a chair in a room. There is a single door that is closed, and Jones does not know whether the door is locked or unlocked. Jones will only try to unlock the door if he wishes to leave, but if he wishes to stay, he will not try to unlock the door, forever not knowing whether the door is actually locked or not. A locked door means he cannot physically leave the room, and an unlocked door means he can physically leave the room. I will paint several scenarios.

Scenario #1 - Jones wishes to leave the room, and the door is locked. Is Jones "free" to leave the room, yes or no?

Scenario #2 - Jones does not wish to leave the room, and the door is locked. Is Jones "free" to stay in the room, yes or no?

Scenario #3 - Jones wishes to leave the room, and the door is unlocked. Is Jones "free" to leave the room, yes or no?

Scenario #4 - Jones does not wish to leave the room, and the door is unlocked. Is Jones "free" to stay in the room, yes or no?
Click to expand...
1. No
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Yes
 
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Not sure what you all mean by the lost being free in their wills.

The fact that alleged professing believers fight to the death for their right to be and/or have free wills is silly actually in light of what that state means outside of salvation. Some seem to really miss that and take great pride in their former state.

Free to do what exactly? Obey your lusts, your old flesh?

Scriptures teach no one is free, that means in their wills or choices, or in any manner until the Son sets them free, then they are free indeed -- John 8:36. Prior to this all are bound in sin, and not free -- Romans 6:20-23.
 
Howie said:
1. No
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Yes
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Yep, this is classic compatibilistic free will, which centers the will on the desire, not on the possibilities. That is, if we can do what we desire to do, we are "free", and it's immaterial and irrelevant that we may not be able to do otherwise. If we can do the thing we wish to do, then we are "free".

In this sense, lots and lots of times we are NOT free. I am quite often not free to have my desires. But I don't think anyone - not even the most ardent libertarian - would claim that our free will is UNLIMITED.
 
Crazy Ivan said:
Scenario #2 - Jones does not wish to leave the room, and the door is locked. Is Jones "free" to stay in the room, yes or no?
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Of course he is.

Here's the thought experiment I like to use...

There is a seagull in a parking lot. About 15 feet away from him is a discarded serving of McDonald's french fries. The gull has to decide whether to fly over to fries, or to walk over. He decides to walk.

Was that a "real choice" that the seagull made?

Now, unbeknownst to the gull, one of its wings was broken, and he would have been unable to fly to fries.

Was his choice to walk over any less a "real choice"?
 
preacher4truth said:
Not sure what you all mean by the lost being free in their wills.

The fact that alleged professing believers fight to the death for their right to be and/or have free wills is silly actually in light of what that state means outside of salvation. Some seem to really miss that and take great pride in their former state.

Free to do what exactly? Obey your lusts, your old flesh?

Scriptures teach no one is free, that means in their wills or choices, or in any manner until the Son sets them free, then they are free indeed -- John 8:36. Prior to this all are bound in sin, and not free -- Romans 6:20-23.
Click to expand...
Good to see you back in here brother. ?
 
preacher4truth said:
Not sure what you all mean by the lost being free in their wills.

The fact that alleged professing believers fight to the death for their right to be and/or have free wills is silly actually in light of what that state means outside of salvation. Some seem to really miss that and take great pride in their former state.

Free to do what exactly? Obey your lusts, your old flesh?

Scriptures teach no one is free, that means in their wills or choices, or in any manner until the Son sets them free, then they are free indeed -- John 8:36. Prior to this all are bound in sin, and not free -- Romans 6:20-23.
Click to expand...
ten minutes ago, someone wasn't a Believer
and now they are

what about them has changed?
 
What if someone unlocks to door; is Jones free to leave or stay, yes or no?
Crazy Ivan said:
Can we just stick with the scenarios I presented?
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Excluded middle; there is another option.
Matt 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
 
PeanutGallery said:
What if someone unlocks to door; is Jones free to leave or stay, yes or no?

Excluded middle; there is another option.
Matt 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Click to expand...

Ok. That doesn't answer the thought experiment, but ok.
 
has no answer, apparently
like most Mainliners, probably talks about some vague freedom in Christ but doesn't really believe it or teach it

Free to do what exactly?
...until the Son sets them free, then they are free indeed
Click to expand...
 
Crazy Ivan said:
Yep, this is classic compatibilistic free will, which centers the will on the desire, not on the possibilities. That is, if we can do what we desire to do, we are "free", and it's immaterial and irrelevant that we may not be able to do otherwise. If we can do the thing we wish to do, then we are "free".
Click to expand...

Meaningful choices requires that the other possibilities be realistically available and desirable. In your example you've placed the desire before the possibility. However if we go back to the Garden, the possibility was evident and then came the desire; similarly in Romans 7, the knowledge of the possibility of sin preceded the desire to sin.

In your example, the desire to go outside or not to go outside would be influenced by the knowledge that the door was unlocked. Denying Mr. Jones that knowledge before his choice has eliminated his free will on the matter.

Crazy Ivan said:
In this sense, lots and lots of times we are NOT free. I am quite often not free to have my desires. But I don't think anyone - not even the most ardent libertarian - would claim that our free will is UNLIMITED.
Click to expand...

Even God's free will isn't unlimited. He's bound by his covenants and oaths. I doubt anybody with a modicum of knowledge of what the Bible says holds to the idea of unlimited free will for anybody (to include God). I don't think that sort of idea commits the error of a gross oversimplification of one side while insisting on a nuanced view of the other side.
 
Stephen said:
Meaningful choices requires that the other possibilities be realistically available and desirable. In your example you've placed the desire before the possibility. However if we go back to the Garden, the possibility was evident and then came the desire; similarly in Romans 7, the knowledge of the possibility of sin preceded the desire to sin.

In your example, the desire to go outside or not to go outside would be influenced by the knowledge that the door was unlocked. Denying Mr. Jones that knowledge before his choice has eliminated his free will on the matter.
Click to expand...

In my example, Jones doesn't know whether the door is unlocked or locked.

Stephen said:
Even God's free will isn't unlimited. He's bound by his covenants and oaths. I doubt anybody with a modicum of knowledge of what the Bible says holds to the idea of unlimited free will for anybody (to include God). I don't think that sort of idea commits the error of a gross oversimplification of one side while insisting on a nuanced view of the other side.
Click to expand...

Well for sure God can't do ANYTHING. We can even do some things that God cannot do, as the Scriptures tell us. For example, Hebrews 6:18 tells us that "it is impossible for God to lie".

I totally agree with you that nobody has unlimited free will in a libertarian sense. God, however....well, if we define free will in a compatibilistic sense, then God would have unlimited free will, because free will is the ability to do that which you most desire (primary inclination) and God would only do the things He wants to do - and in the case above, He would not want to lie, so it would be impossible for Him TO lie.
 
Crazy Ivan said:
In my example, Jones doesn't know whether the door is unlocked or locked.



Well for sure God can't do ANYTHING. We can even do some things that God cannot do, as the Scriptures tell us. For example, Hebrews 6:18 tells us that "it is impossible for God to lie".

I totally agree with you that nobody has unlimited free will in a libertarian sense. God, however....well, if we define free will in a compatibilistic sense, then God would have unlimited free will, because free will is the ability to do that which you most desire (primary inclination) and God would only do the things He wants to do - and in the case above, He would not want to lie, so it would be impossible for Him TO lie.
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Calvinism holds man has compatibilistic free will, in this case however it the ability to choose what he is determined to desire.

Not what most people would call free will.
 
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