CrowCross
Well-known member
And you seem to object to that. At least you get it.
Thought Experiment
- Thread starter Lighthearted Atheist
- Start date
SteveB
Well-known member
Says the guy who keeps saying he only accepts empirical evidence, but refuses to actually do.
Curious how that works.
Doers actually know the truth.
As Jesus' brother said.
Jas 1:22-25 WEB 22 But be doers of the word, and not only hearers, deluding your own selves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man looking at his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he sees himself, and goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of freedom and continues, not being a hearer who forgets, but a doer of the work, this man will be blessed in what he does.
So, you can indeed continue to believe whatever you want. Only those who do the truth will know the truth.
Joh 14:23 WEB Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.
You have no reason for why we should believe that you are an actual "empirical evidence" kind of individual.
If you were, you'd be a doer of the Word, instead of denying the Truth.
Jas 1:22-25 WEB 22 But be doers of the word, and not only hearers, deluding your own selves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man looking at his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he sees himself, and goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of freedom and continues, not being a hearer who forgets, but a doer of the work, this man will be blessed in what he does.
Lighthearted Atheist
Well-known member
Thank you. I do not understand how you chose The Bible over the other religions. It seems like you just chose it, decided it was all real, and did not even consider the rest. That makes sense. It is why when you are born in the US you are most likely to be Christian. If born in Iran you'll be Muslim. In India you'll be Hindu.I gave you my thoughts, and you decided to deride.
I said I wouldn't to your question, but you couldn't leave it there, you had to get your animosity on.
I'll say it again:
I wouldn't.
People choose the religion that is around them and then believe it. That seems consistent.
Thank you.
Lighthearted Atheist
Well-known member
"If you agree with me you are gifted with the sight! If you do not then you do not have the sight!" is a cognitive bias error.
Your logic is extreme cognitive bias. It is a logic error. I do not object to it - you can use all the logic errors you like and believe whatever you want.
I personally do not find logic errors to be compelling. But I understand what you believe and why you chose The Bible.
Thank you.
CrowCross
Well-known member
Apparently you currently are not of the elect. Then again maybe God will save you later on.
Lighthearted Atheist
Well-known member
You have demonstrated that you do not comprehend what empirical evidece is. You have never shared any.
"I saw God" is not empirical. "Do what Jesus said!" is not empirical. "The Bible is from God!" is not empirical.
Your lack of evidence is not my ability to comprehend the evidence you do nto show.
Meaningless until you prove any of this is from a god.
]OK - that's cool.
Belief in empiricism does not automatically lead to God. That might be your single greatest logic error. I think it trips you up. Maybe its time to consider the fact that you might be wrong about empiricism.
Or not - whatever floats your boat..
After all I have said how can you possibly post this and think a quote from a book you cannot prove true has any impact?
"Sing the Glories of God each and every day; your afflictions shall be dispelled, and you shall be saved, my humble friend." -- The Vedas
Well if we believe ancient books without question then that line suggests I better start praying to Brahma...
Lighthearted Atheist
Well-known member
This is a cognitive bias cognitive error. The error is you believe those that support your belief in God (you have the ability to see truth!) and you reject those who do not believe in God (you do not have the ability!).
That is cognitive bias. Your belief is founded on a logic error.
Also you cannot demonstrate this ability exists, if you have it, or if I do not. This is just more claims of supernatural knowledge that you cannot demonstrate - to prove your other supernatural claims that you cannot demonstrate.
Which is cool.
I do not logic errors to be a good foundation for belief. But I understand this is what you believe.
Thank you.
Furion
Well-known member
I didn't.
You 'seemed' incorrectly.
This your deal though, it doesn't seem to me you were looking for understanding, so no need to offer it.
Strawman. I have already shown that the Bible shows how and why the truth and reality is made known to everyone, you can read it for yourself.
And if the Bible explains exactly how and why the truth and reality is made known to us, then how is that "based on nothing"? You're not interested in the truth, because the truth requires change and pride hates change.
Your unbelief is irrational, in that your unbelieving mind makes the truth and reality irrelevant, even the way that the truth and reality is made known to you is made impertinent to you.
Strawman. Christians believe that the Bible outlines quite effectively how and why the truth is made known to us.
So, you don't think that belief exists and is capable of making the truth and reality known to anyone?
Actually the only foundation that exists that is capable of making the truth and reality known to us is the ability to believe.
Lighthearted Atheist
Well-known member
Sorry - I thought you were a Christian - my error. I get people mixed up here sometimes and I mistakenly thought you believed The Bible.
Apologies - I need more coffee.
Lighthearted Atheist
Well-known member
I did read it. I do not believe a man lived in a fish or that a dragon will attack the world or that the Earth formed before the sun. If you believe those things are true then you have absolutely not proven them.
Asking me to read a book and telling me to come to your conclusions is not a way to prove your claim true.
"Read The Bible and believe!" is just not compelling. And it seems no different than "read the Koran and believe!"
Truth is what we can prove. You claim The Bible is true - cool. Now just prove it is. Otherwise there is no reason to think your books is true and the other books are not.
I do not believe without empirical proof. I think that is about the most rational thing I can do.
But if I am rational or irrational is not relevant. What is relevant is that you claim to know secret, cosmic, supernatural truths with no way to demonstrate that it is anything but in your head.
And you have not changed that today. Your arguement continues to be "The Bible is the path to truth because The Bible says it is the path to truth!"
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Lighthearted Atheist
Well-known member
I know you believe this. I do not understand why.
Belief is a human concept - it does not 'exist' in reality. Its a description of human thought and emotion. And I believe that we all believe things.
Truth is what we can prove. And I think anyone can use empiricism to prove things true.
You claim what you say is true with no way to prove it is.
I have no idea what this means but you seem to be debating concepts against ideas against subjective opinions. All of these are in your head -= there is nothing in reality that is 'true' that you can prove to be true.
If I say there is a tea cup orbiting Saturn is it true? No. We'd need to prove it. What if I repeatedly claim it is true? No. Reputation does not change anything.
At the end of the day you claim to have supernatural knowledge about the truth of the universe and seem to think saying 'Bible' proves you do.
It does not.
Strawman. Neither do I. I don't believe that "a man lived in a fish or that a dragon will attack the world or that the Earth formed before the sun". So, that's a strawman.
But I do believe that it is possible for a man to be swallowed by a fish and spat out in a different location than the place he was swallowed. I believe that the red dragon in the Bible represents communist China and that China is actively trying to spread the hateful and murderous ideology of communism.
I also believe that nothing can be known to exist or occur without the benefit of a Believing Mind making its reality known to exist and occur; including the earth and its sun.
Another strawman. I am not asking you to believe anything. I am telling you that the Bible shows us exactly how and why the truth is made known to us. And in fact it is there in the Bible in black and white (in some versions a little red) what is required for the truth and reality be made known to us.
Problem is that you can't know the truth without believing it first, that's why I don't have to prove anything to you, because in reality you have to believe it for yourself before the truth is known to you.
Actually empiricism is completely illogical, because it denies the only means by which the truth and reality is made known to everyone. Empiricism denies that belief is a form of knowledge, even though belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to everyone and all Justified True Beliefs are in fact still beliefs.
Another strawman. I am not claiming at all that how the truth and reality is known to us is any kind of "secret, cosmic, supernatural". All I am saying is that if belief is necessary in order to make the truth band reality known to us, then we must have to believe BEFORE the truth and reality is made known to us. And the Bible propagates this very truth.
Another strawman. Man you are good at strawmanning, because I have never claimed that "The Bible is the path to truth because The Bible says it is the path to truth!"
Rather my argument is that if the Bible does in fact show us exactly how and why the truth and reality is made known to us, then why shouldn't it be believed?
Lighthearted Atheist
Well-known member
What you believe is not what The Bible says. You are just making up what you want to be true now. Which is fine! But is is very hard to convince us you know 'the truth' when you are so loose with The Bible.
Oh. If you are not trying to get atheists to believe you then I think you are posting in the wrong forum.
This really does not mean anything dude. You keep saying it but it is really just word salad. I am sorry - I am not trying to be rude - but saying 'you have to believe before the truth is known' is just nonsensical.
And now I am out. If you believe empiricism does not work as you type on an empirically built computer running on empirically built electric current in a an empirically built hose then you have left the path of reason.
No it does not.
This is nonsensical.
You claim to know these truths and cannot show them to us empirically. That suggests that you have secret knowledge of the truth - which you cannot prove.
This really does not say anything beyond 'believe The Bible because I said so!"
Yes you did. You just cannot see it for some reason. Your claim that The Bible is the path to truth because it is in The Bible. You have zero non-Biblical evidence to support any of this.
Thus The Bible is your proof of The Bible.
It is easy to prove me wrong. Just share some knowledge that we can verify that could only havce come from God. Prove Heaven is real. Prove anything in The Bible happened.
Until you can your logic is just not sound.
If is really the key word there, isn't it? And you have yet to prove if what you say is true.
Lighthearted Atheist
Well-known member
Yes. And you cannot prove any of that 'truth'. Thus your only proof that The Bible shows us truth is The Bible.
And that is a logic error.
I believe that the concept of belief is very real in the human mind - not reality. Truth is how we describe things we have proven to be true.
I do not believe that somehow proves God is real.
OK - this makes no sense but OK.
In the end you are claiming to know God and your only evidence is the words in The Bible - that have no more proof than any other religion.
You can keep claiming that you know some supernatural truth because The Bible showed you. I will not believe this until you have some way to demonstrate it.
Have a good one.
Because the Bible shows us exactly how and why the truth is made known to us.
What reason do you have to disbelieve this, when I have already shown you that the Bible does in fact show us how and why the truth is made known to us?
But how can you know the truth and reality, when you can't even manage believe that belief exists in reality? I mean if belief must occur in reality before the truth is known to you, then how can belief not exist or occur in reality? Your thinking is complete illogical to say the least.
Actually truth is ONLY what we can manage to believe, because in reality without belief the truth is unknowable. So, to suggest that "belief doesn't exist in reality", is a denial of the only means by which the truth and reality is knowable to us.
You're not being honest, because I have shown you many times that the Bible does show us exactly how the truth and reality is made known to us. So your denial is nothing more than a suppression of the truth on your part.
Well if the truth and reality aren't supposed to be known "in your head", then where else do you know of that the truth and reality is supposed to be known?
And if you think "there is nothing in reality that is true that you can prove to be true", then how do you know anything to be true without believing it is true first?
And if you really believed that "there is nothing in reality that is true that you can prove to be true", then stop pretending you know the truth and reality.
Strawman. Show where I claimed to have "supernatural knowledge"?
I have not claimed that "there is a tea cup orbiting Saturn is it true". But rather that is you who said this and thus you who is propagating its illogicality and falsity.
I am claiming that the Bible shows us exactly how and why the truth and reality is made known to us. And you have not shown otherwise.
SteveB
Well-known member
You're right.
I have absolutely no idea what evideCE is.
Not a word I've even seen before.
The thing I find myself curious about is the you keep telling people you want empirical evideNCE, but when given the opportunity to get empirical evideNce, you refuse to do what is necessary to obtain any, and then you blame others, for giving you the truth, and claim that it's not your responsibility for yourself and your actions.
Curious....
I don't recall ever making such a statement.
Especially when it's plainly written that no man can see God and live.
Granted, had you ever actually bothered to take the time to learn by reading for yourself, you would have seen that.
The results of doing what Jesus said are what's empirical.
Had you actually studied a scientific discipline, you would have understood that concept.
Do what Jesus said is a statement.
And both Jesus and his Father will come and make their home with you is the promise of YHVH to give you empirical evidence of himself.
We who follow Jesus have enjoyed YHVH's presence and work in our lives from the start of our journey with Jesus, by doing what Jesus said to do.
No. It's a statement of fact.
You however have no awareness of this because you refuse to engage him on his terms so you may learn for yourself the veracity of his power in and through your own life.
It's a post experience with Jesus which gives us the confidence to recognize this statement, and then make the declaration of this statement.
You'll have to explain to me some day what an nto is.
Are they atheist words, or acronyms for something?
You keep claiming that you refuse to accept anything except empirical evidence and here you are demanding I give you my empirical evidence.
When will you grasp the nature of empirical evidence is evidence that you yourself acquire through your own experiences?
By giving you my empirical evidence, you are being given secondhand information about my own empirical research. By giving you my empirical evidence, you have to take my word and claims on faith.
That's not empirical enough for you.
You need.... indeed! You have repeatedly demanded that you be able to get your own empirical evidence, yet you continue to refuse to engage him on his terms so you may acquire your own empirical evidence.
It's become quite clear to me that it's you who have no idea what empirical evidence is.
We who have experienced YHVH and Jesus have been giving you our empirical evidence.
You have repeatedly refused to take what we're giving you, and do anything with it. Had you actually wanted empirical evidence, you would have taken the time to read and learn for yourself, and then applied what you learned, and YHVH himself would have given you the same evidence he's given us.
Scientists who are engaged in peer review are reading the writings of their peers.
If they're concerned that the work is producing fraudulent information, they're free to do their own research, by following the same practices the authors used.
In this manner they're able to get their own empirical evidence to give them a basis to affirm or challenge the claims of the authors.
If they do not believe what the authors say, they can do their own research.
If they do believe what the authors say, they will affirm their work.
You are in the position of not believing what we who follow Jesus are saying.
So follow the practices of what Jesus said.
Engage him yourself.
Paul tells us in 1 Thessalonians 5:21-22,
1Th 5:21-22 WEB 21 Test all things, and hold firmly that which is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.
This is enjoining you to do your own research on this issue.
I have repeatedly told you that the only way you can get your own empirical evidence is to do what we who follow Jesus are doing ....
What Jesus said to do!
He made it explicitly clear.
Joh 14:23 WEB Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.
This will give you the truth regarding Jesus Christ, and YHVH.
I've already done this.
You have made it clear that you don't want to take the proof at face value.
Yet you continue to refuse to engage him on his terms so he can give you empirical evidence himself.
Another acronym?
I never saw ]OK before either.
It only leads to YHVH for those who are interested in actually learning the truth.
Others, such as yourself, have an erroneous view of empirical evidence, and refuse to engage in their own research so they themselves may learn the truth.
And what error is that?
That experience is not empirically acquired?
I see self-deceit is floating yours.
Perfect description of why you don't actually know what empirical evidence is.
Thank you for stating it so clearly.
Peer review is the process of learning the experience of the author, in regards to their research.
When the peer reviewer does not believe the author, they're able to use the instructions given by the author, and then do their own research for themselves.
If the research is corroborated, the reviewers will affirm the work of the author.
In the case of the bible, we who follow Jesus are also reviewers (every single human being since the bible was written is a reviewer. The writers are the authors of the first initial contacts), and have done our own respective research, and can affirm that the bible is true and YHVH's word for the human race.
We, as reviewers, are letting you know what we've learned, and saying that you can indeed do it for yourself.
Your practice here is not of someone who is interested in getting empirical evidence.
Your practice is of someone who simply likes naysaying, while using fancy words to justify your ignorance.
Someone who is a good scientist will not argue about it. They'll engage in researching the content for themselves.
So... which are you?
You're not actually doing what a good scientist would do.
Your afflictions will be dispelled.....
Boy wouldn't that be nice!
Rather interesting that Job, David, Jesus, Paul, Peter, and other Jesus followers described something entirely different.
Jesus said that by following him, we'd likely be killed for his name sake. Paul tells us that everyone who follows righteousness will suffer persecution.
Job did what was right, and suffered the loss of everything. Even his wife told him to curse God and die!
Peter tells us that we will suffer greatly because we are following Jesus.
I think however that the psalmists say it best.
Psa 73:2-12 WEB 2 But as for me, my feet were almost gone. My steps had nearly slipped. 3 For I was envious of the arrogant, when I saw the prosperity of the wicked. 4 For there are no struggles in their death, but their strength is firm. 5 They are free from burdens of men, neither are they plagued like other men. 6 Therefore pride is like a chain around their neck. Violence covers them like a garment. 7 Their eyes bulge with fat. Their minds pass the limits of conceit. 8 They scoff and speak with malice. In arrogance, they threaten oppression. 9 They have set their mouth in the heavens. Their tongue walks through the earth. 10 Therefore their people return to them, and they drink up waters of abundance. 11 They say, “How does God know? Is there knowledge in the Most High?” 12 Behold, these are the wicked. Being always at ease, they increase in riches.
As well as
Psa 119:67 WEB Before I was afflicted, I went astray; but now I observe your word.
And
Psa 119:71 WEB It is good for me that I have been afflicted, that I may learn your statutes.
So, while indeed a pretty, indeed, a desirable theme in the phrase.... it's based on a lie.
Jesus was quite clear about this.
Those who believe him will be treated with contempt, disgust, loathing, and hatred.
Let us know how that works out for you.
WHEN you figure out that it's not true, come do what Jesus said.
He's given us an explicit message that he will give us his life in exchange for the death our sin results in.
Lighthearted Atheist
Well-known member
I disbelive because you fail to prove this 'truth' exists. I read The Bible twice and did not see this 'truth' you allude to vaguely.
I had the same experience with The Koran, the Vedas, and the Book of Mormon. read them all. Did not see the truth the Muslims, Hindus, and the Scientologist.
So I do not believe you yet - just need proof.
I know what is true by proving it empirically. I have no idea what you are saying about belief and reality and truth. But the only way I know to prove what is true is by proving it.
We do not get to 'truth' by reading a 2,000 year old book and just believing it. Otherwise I have no idea how you'd know which of the dozens of ancient holy books is 'true'
Billions claim they are true. You have yet to demonstrate, beyond repeating things about truth and belief, that anything in The Bible is truth.
Belief does not exist in reality and I have no idea why you think it does.
Belief is a concept that does not exist in reality. So your point above begins with an error and is invalid.
I;'ve asked you repeatedly to show me belief out in reality and you have not. That should be a hint as to which of us is right
My denial is based on your lack of evidence. That's all.
Do you think human knowledge is outside the head? Where? Is Knowledge hanging out with Belief, Truth, and the other concepts in Key West Florida?
Why do you keep claiming concepts exist in reality? Its...well, it's something.
You seem to think we believe something first and then it is true. It is delusional to think you belief somehow create or enable reality. Its a psychological disorder - not a path to truth.
The way it acvtually works is we observe reality, test it, and then believe. We do not believe and then it exists. That is madness dude.
Delusion: an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument, typically a symptom of mental disorder.
Your arguement that we believe first and then find it in reality is delusional. Go ask people in a mental hospital what they belive to be true and see if their belief creates truth
I do not believe, or understand, this.
If you claim to know the nature of God then you are claiming supernatural knowledge.
Its a thought experiment that I thought would illuminate your error. Pay it no mind.
You have not proven this. And if you believe it is true until I prove it is not then that is, again, delusion. And a logic error. And a perfect example of Russel's Teacup - which I used brilliantly
Strawman. Actually the Bible does in facts teach that belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to us. And to suggest otherwise is just a outright lie.
Actually it is only the truth and reality that can make you believe it. And if anyone tells you otherwise, then they don't understand the Bible.
That's what it is to be a unbeliever, you think the truth is a "word salad" or "nonsensical", because your unbelief just makes you unaware of the truth and reality.
It still doesn't change the fact that you can't know the truth without believing it first.
Strawman. Actually I don't "believe empiricism works" for anyone to make the truth and reality known to them, because empiricism excludes belief as a form of knowledge, when in reality belief is necessary in order to make all truth and reality known to everyone including you.
Are you seriously suggesting that a computers built themselves, because as far as I know like everything else that exists and occurs in reality computers too were developed by believing minds and without a believing mind computer could not exist or occur. Actually it was man's capacity to believe that makes all new technology work, because without belief man is unable to do anything.
Strawman. No, I "claim to know these truths" by believing them, because without belief the truth is unknowable.
What sane person disbelieves that they HAVE to believe in order to make the truth known to themselves? And to suggest that your physical senses can make the truth and reality known to you without first believing anything is akin to insanity.
Is believing you have to believe the truth before it is known to you "secret knowledge of the truth - which you cannot prove"?
It says how and why the truth and reality is known to us.
No, strawman. My claim is that the Bible tells us exactly how and why the truth and reality is made known to us. And you have not shown otherwise.
Strawman.
Actually God is shows believers how His truth and reality is known. And you keep denying and rejecting it because of your unbelief. It isn't that it isn't knowable, but it is only unknowable to you because you have rejected the only means by which the truth and reality of God is made known to you.
Are you really pretending that the Bible doesn't promote belief as the only means by which the truth and reality is made known to us?
But if you can't know the truth without belief occurring in reality first, then belief must exist in reality. How can something that must occur in reality not exist in reality?
The truth and reality can only be known to exist and occur in and with a believing mind, so God is that Original believing mind that the truth and reality always existed. Since to say that the truth or reality never always existed is self-refuting, then the truth and reality must have existed somewhere for eternity. So, the truth and reality must have resulted from God's Believing Mind.