Thought Experiment

[Caroljeen]

This is called confirmation bias - being immersed in a Christian culture, both your initial interpretation and your subsequent reflection have been thus influenced.

The thing is that I keep experiencing God's presence many times over the course of my relationship with God. Even unexpected times when I'm not seeking him directly. It wasn't a one time event. He keeps confirming to me over and over again that he is real and cares about me.

 

[Eightcrackers]

The thing is that I keep experiencing God's presence many times over the course of my relationship with God.

Or, you keep experiecing <things> and interpreting them as the Bible god's presence.
Is that possible?

It wasn't a one time event.

Confirmation bias is fuelled by multiple events - the more you experience, the more it strengthens existing beliefs.
Whether or not those beliefs are correct.

 

[Whatsisface]

The thing is that I keep experiencing God's presence many times over the course of my relationship with God. Even unexpected times when I'm not seeking him directly. It wasn't a one time event. He keeps confirming to me over and over again that he is real and cares about me.

How does He do this?

 

[Caroljeen]

Or, you keep experiecing <things> and interpreting them as the Bible god's presence.
Is that possible?

No, I don't think so. The experiences vary. They aren't always the same. As for feeling the presence of God, having a sense that He is right here with me...it's difficult to explain. It's his presence that I felt.
Something much easier to explain is speaking in other tongues (languages). I don't know if I want to share that with you.
Or the first time I felt the presence of an evil spirit. I didn't know what it was but when I looked down this little boy was going to bite my hand. I moved my hand quickly to avoid him. Or the time an evil black spirit came into my room and I saw it come though the closed window and hover at the foot of my bed. Or the time I was pinned on my pinned and couldn't speak or move and this voice was telling me how he was going to destroy my marriage...I don't like encountering the dark side. I much more prefer the presence of God.

Confirmation bias is fuelled by multiple events - the more you experience, the more it strengthens existing beliefs.
Whether or not those beliefs are correct.

Okay. but what about the variety? wouldn't the experience have to always be the same for it to be a confirmational bias?

 

[Eightcrackers]

Okay. but what about the variety? wouldn't the experience have to always be the same for it to be a confirmational bias?

No.
Confirmation bias is the interpretation of any kind of evidence in a light that favours pre-existing beliefs.

 

[Caroljeen]

No.
Confirmation bias is the interpretation of any kind of evidence in a light that favours pre-existing beliefs.

You must be British.

 

[El Cid]

Let's say three men approach, each holding an ancient tome. The first says, "God is real! The truth is in The Bible. And I have personally experienced God" The second says, "Allah is real! The truth is in The Koran. And I have personally experienced Allah." The third says, "Lord Shiva is real!" God is real! The truth is in the Vedas. And I have personally experienced Shiva"

How would you go about figuring out which, if any, to believe?

Why would someone believe the Christian but reject the Hindu and the Muslim?

There are serious philosophical, historical and scientific problems with Islam and Hinduism, unlike Christianity. So I would choose Christianity.

 

[Whatsisface]

There are serious philosophical, historical and scientific problems with Islam and Hinduism, unlike Christianity. So I would choose Christianity.

That's what adherents of Islam and Hinduism say about Christianity. You sound just like them, and they like you.

 

[Furion]

You must be British.

Probably better to just assume these dudes are euros. You'll be correct most of the time.

 

[Lighthearted Atheist]

Ah.... evideNce...
That's a word I'm acquainted with.
I just never saw EvideCe before.


I'd agree with this.




Ironically, nowhere in the bible does it say YHVH dropped manna from the sky in Africa.
What would today be the regions of Saudi Arabia, Jordan... yes. But Africa.... no.

That's not true. I have repeatedly given you the empirical evidence that YHVH is real.
The nation of Israel, and the Jewish people.

You however keep saying that they are not evidence of YHVH's existence.



And yet I see you provide nothing which would give us reason to believe that is true.

I'd say that the problem here is that you don't actually know what empirical evidence is.
A political body of people looks pretty empirical to me. I can travel to Israel. I can engage in the politics of the nation, handle the products they manufacture, foods they sell, talk with people who are Israeli, read books published by Israeli people, in the Israeli language. I can observe the bible in action in Israel.
I'd say that's better than a moon rock.
Furthermore I can talk to a Jewish person and corroborate they are in fact Jewish.

I can further handle the book, a collection of writings that are historically known as the bible.
I have a copy of the Dead Sea scrolls sitting on my book shelf at home right now, and have previously verified that what is written on its pages matches what was found in the Qumran caves in 1947, and dated to the first century.
I've further corroborated that what is written in the Dead Sea scrolls matches what is written in the bible I use.

Sounds like empirical evidence based on your definition.




Sounds like you have a subjective opinion, but we're supposed to take that subjective opinion as factual, regardless, and are not allowed to question your opinions.

Sounds pretty subjective to me.


Ah. That's what I thought, but I've never seen anything like this before so I had to say as much.

Well, you've provided nothing which would corroborate that, so that seems subjective to me.


I said that they can, if they decide that they don't believe that the author is correct in their own research.
Please... pay attention.



Yep.

Nope. The evidence is the basis from which I understand the biblical narrative.



I read the Quran. I see nothing that shows me how to know Allah.
What am I supposed to do, get myself killed murdering other people in the name of Islam?
It's a sure fire way to end up dead.

Jesus said that we must DO what he says to know him.

He tells us,
If you love me, keep my commandments and my Father will love you and we will come and make our home with you.

Reading alone has never been enough.
It's doing what Jesus said that matters, and will result in their coming to live with you.

Don't worry though. You won't have to murder anyone. Jesus said that we're to love our enemies, to pray for those who treat us spitefully, and bless those who curse us.

So, the worst possible scenario is that you would be faced with the idea that you would be loving people who despise you.

While indeed unpleasant, and challenging, I'm curious why taking the time to learn to do what Jesus said is such a problem for you.





The irony is that the moment after your death, the magnitude of evidence will be inescapable. It'll also be impossible to turn back to do anything about it. You'll find yourself eternally stuck where you are, and no amount of arguing will change your state.



Reading isn't enough.
I have made this clear repeatedly, and yet you keep ignoring it.indeed! You actually whined about it earlier today.

It's an absolute necessity to be a doer of the word of God.
Failure to do so excludes you from knowing the truth.

This is exactly why Jesus told is-- if to continue in my teachings, you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.


For someone who claims to be so intelligent, you sure do demonstrate a lot of density, and lack thereof.

I've stated this several different ways, and you keep tripping over yourself in restating my comments.

It's leaving me wondering if you just like acting ignorant.

It's not my beliefs you are testing.
It's the bible.

So, let's see if you can figure that out or will you keep confusing yourself.



Then don't. I have taken the time to learn so I can better understand.

My experiences however have found that the supernatural is irrefutable and inescapable.
It's a matter of sheer stupidity and ignorance that makes people believe they can ignore it.



Well, if I have to continue to assume what you mean, then this is going to take a very, very, very, very long time to get through your posts.
Is that what you want? Confusion and lack of clarity?



You haven't actually read any peer reviewed articles, have you.




Perr......
Is that somebody's name?
I'm acquainted with a guy who is a programmer named Per. Not familiar with Perr though.


Where on earth did you come up with that idea?
I've never lived on a hippie commune.


Something you have utterly failed to do in your descriptions below.



Really? The SAME, EXACT experiment?
Seems to me that you believe that is what you did. But as you are not detailing your experiment, I think that you want me to believe that is what you did.

This is exactly the problem with this lack of detail in writing up your lack of experience as a journal article.

Which piece of empirical evidence should we test first? You seem to have completely ignored the OP. Which is strange because you have repeatedly claimed to have empirical evidence. I accept that. I am not arguing.

So - which piece of your evidence should we test first? Where can I find it?

 

[Lighthearted Atheist]

Joh 8:31-36 WEB 31 Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, “If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. 32 You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” 33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s offspring, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How do you say, ‘You will be made free’?” 34 Jesus answered them, “Most certainly I tell you, everyone who commits sin is the bondservant of sin. 35 A bondservant doesn’t live in the house forever. A son remains forever. 36 If therefore the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

Joh 14:23 WEB Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.


Jas 1:22-25 WEB 22 But be doers of the word, and not only hearers, deluding your own selves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man looking at his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he sees himself, and goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of freedom and continues, not being a hearer who forgets, but a doer of the work, this man will be blessed in what he does.

You keep telling me that you are reading the bible.

It's not reading alone that accomplishes it.

It's doing what Jesus taught us.

Focus on learning what Jesus said.

Then do it!

Are these cut and pasted Bible quotes your empirical evidence for God? OK. How should I test Joh 8:31?

 

[Lighthearted Atheist]

No, that is not what I'm saying.

It's not really the Bible you want to meet when you are trying to find God. It's God himself. Once you encounter God, then the Bible is there for you to read and learn about him. For me, it had to be a personal experience with God for me to believe that he exists.

Where can I encounter God so I can conduct the test? I am in North America - is it near me? I'm happy to travel to the evidence but I'd rather not leave the country.

 

[Lighthearted Atheist]

There are serious philosophical, historical and scientific problems with Islam and Hinduism, unlike Christianity. So I would choose Christianity.

Thank you for the reply. But I think you just proved my position that there is no real, empirical reason to believe The Bible over the Koran. You did not base your belief on facts. You picked the book you like best and just decided to believe it is all true.

I personally do not believe things just because I want them to be true. I believe what we can prove - like it or not.

 

[SteveB]

Which piece of empirical evidence should we test first? You seem to have completely ignored the OP. Which is strange because you have repeatedly claimed to have empirical evidence. I accept that. I am not arguing.

So - which piece of your evidence should we test first? Where can I find it?

The least expensive one...

What Jesus said.

Its sole requirement is to read, and then act on.

The result is the evidence.

Eg....

As I've stated several times before, I was a journeyman sheet metal mechanic. I served a union apprenticeship, and in my apprenticeship I was taught to do the work of pattern-developmemt drafting to make sheet metal fittings for industrial, architectural and HVAC projects.

Here's an example.

Sheet-metal pattern drafting and shop problems by James S. Daugherty | Open Library

Sheet Metal Pattern Drafting and Shop Problems by James S. Daugherty, 1922, Manual Arts Press edition, in English

openlibrary.org

By following the instructions given, I can work through creating a sheet metal fitting for use in the real world.

I can test the claim made by the author, by following the instructions in the book.

The results determine two things...
1- how good I am at following instructions.
2- how accurate the author is in his description.

If the author is good, then it's on me to learn to understand and do it right. If both are good, then the results will determine whether or not they told you the truth about the manufacture of the sheet metal fitting.

Google Image Result for https://shopdata.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/2-right-side-fitting-library-1.png

images.app.goo.gl

In like manner, the bible gives us the wherewithal to follow the instructions given by Jesus and the bible writers.
By reading, applying the instructions, we can know for ourselves whether what the author is saying is true or not.

At which point, we apply it, and the results will match the claims.

No money is required. No equipment or technology purchases are required.

Reading and application are all that's necessary.

 

[Lighthearted Atheist]

The least expensive one...

What Jesus said.

Oh. Then the experiment is concluded. I did what Jesus said and Jesus did not reveal himself as you predicted. So the experiment to prove your hypothesis failed.

What is the next piece of evidence to test?

 

[SteveB]

Oh. Then the experiment is concluded. I did what Jesus said and Jesus did not reveal himself as you predicted. So the experiment to prove your hypothesis failed.

What is the next piece of evidence to test?

If you actually have a bible, you have everything you need.

When you decide whether you want to know the truth, you have what you need.

 

[Lighthearted Atheist]

If you actually have a bible, you have everything you need.

When you decide whether you want to know the truth, you have what you need.

I read it. Jesus was not revealed. So your hypothesis was not proven. The experiment failed.

What is the next piece of evidence we can test?

 

[SteveB]

I read it. Jesus was not revealed. So your hypothesis was not proven. The experiment failed.

You haven't actually proven that you actually did what Jesus said.

What is the next piece of evidence we can test?

Obedience to Jesus is the only way to know.

I say this because you have repeatedly demonstrated that you won't do anything more.

 

[Lighthearted Atheist]

You haven't actually proven that you actually did what Jesus said.

Can you lay out the steps I need to take? Maybe we can see which one I missed. Here is what I did:

1. Read The Bible twice
2. Attended dozens of Christian church services
3. Prayed for revelation

What did I miss? I'll run the test again.

Obedience to Jesus is the only way to know.

How can I test that empirically?

I say this because you have repeatedly demonstrated that you won't do anything more.

I am ready! Just tell me where the evidence is and I'll test it.

It is starting to feel like you do not have any evidence to share but, for some unfathomable reason, keep claiming that you do. I do not understand why you would withhold the empirical evidence for God. I also do not understand why you might claim to have evidence you do not.

But - that's cool. Just let me know when you are comfortable sharing your evidence. I'm going back to cartoons.

 

[SteveB]

Can you lay out the steps I need to take? Maybe we can see which one I missed. Here is what I did:

1. Read The Bible twice
2. Attended dozens of Christian church services
3. Prayed for revelation

Interesting...
I don't see where you actually did what Jesus said.

But, ok. Please show me in the bible where it says that those activities are what Jesus said to do.

Thank you.

What did I miss? I'll run the test again.

Those obviously didn't work for you, so please show me, in the bible, where those activities are what Jesus said to do.

How can I test that empirically?

By actually doing what Jesus actually said to do.

But based on what you stated above, you have a problem with what you think Jesus said to do.

I am ready! Just tell me where the evidence is and I'll test it.

Stop for a while and let's focus on what you think Jesus said to do.

I need you to show me where Jesus said to attend a variety of different churches, read the bible and pray for revelation.

It is starting to feel like you do not have any evidence to share but, for some unfathomable reason, keep claiming that you do. I do not understand why you would withhold the empirical evidence for God. I also do not understand why you might claim to have evidence you do not.

You've repeatedly made it clear you don't want my evidence. You want your own evidence, but you also don't want to do what Jesus said so you can get your own evidence.

So, we first need to deal with this problem.

But - that's cool. Just let me know when you are comfortable sharing your evidence. I'm going back to cartoons.

What cartoons are you watching?