Thought Experiment

[El Cid]

There are reasons, just not objective ones.

I am of the opinion that my morals are better than Hitler's.
"Are" they? Meaningless question.

So you admit that they actually are not. Good for you. Not many atheists admit that.

 

[El Cid]

Thats right, only the Christian God has all the characteristics necessary to produce this universe.

One of the necessary characteristics is "exists" - how is this one established without circularly invoking the existence of the universe?

Since the universe is an effect, we study the characteristics of the universe and then determine that those characteristics point to a cause with the same characteristics of the Christian God. Nothing circular there.

Right. Her disappearance is not a necessary effect of aliens existing. Unlike the universe and God.

Show that this god has the necessary characteristic of existence.

See above.

 

[Eightcrackers]

Since the universe is an effect, we study the characteristics of the universe and then determine that those characteristics point to a cause with the same characteristics of the Christian God.

But how do you know that the Christian god exists?
A thing can only be a potential cause if it exists.

 

[El Cid]

What else is necessary?

Personhood is necessary because we know that persons only come from other persons, and persons exist in this universe. Also, personal creators always have a "fingerprint", that identifies them specifically as the creator. And it appears that that fingerprint is diversity within a unity.

(Also, why is goodness necessary? Not everything created with good intent, is it?)

Because good exists in the universe and goodness can only come from the good. And God is the good.

 

[El Cid]

They revealed it to me.

That is a pretty amazing statement coming from an atheist. How did they reveal it to you?

 

[Whatsisface]

That is a pretty amazing statement coming from an atheist. How did they reveal it to you?

It's hard to describe, but they did it in such a way that I cannot be mistaken.

 

[Whatsisface]

Since the universe is an effect,

We don't know this.

 

[Whatsisface]

Personhood is necessary because we know that persons only come from other persons,

We also know that humans only come from other humans.

Because good exists in the universe and goodness can only come from the good. And God is the good.

Good doesn't exist in the universe like gravity. The idea of goodness is like logic, it is a necessary concept that will occur to sentient creatures. If you help someone, you've done good, and helping someone doesn't require a God to exist

 

[Eightcrackers]

Personhood is necessary because we know that persons only come from other persons,

Your god being a person, where did he come from?

You violate your own precept as soon as you have made use of it.

Also, personal creators always have a "fingerprint", that identifies them specifically as the creator. And it appears that that fingerprint is diversity within a unity.

You've said this before, but it is utterly meaningless.

You claimed, if I recall correctly, that a unitarian god could not create a universe with, for example, more than one kind of elementary particle; nowhere did you prove it, or even attempt to do so.

Because good exists in the universe and goodness can only come from the good. And God is the good.

"Evil exists in the universe and evilness can only come from the evil. And God is the evil."

 

[Eightcrackers]

It's hard to describe, but they did it in such a way that I cannot be mistaken.

"And they will reveal it to you, too, if you only seek them out with sincerity..."

 

[Whatsisface]

"And they will reveal it to you, too, if you only seek them out with sincerity..."

Indeed, you have to want to find them.

 

[El Cid]

But how do you know that the Christian god exists?

Because He has produced effects that point to His existence.

A thing can only be a potential cause if it exists.

No, it can also be a necessary cause if it exists.

 

[El Cid]

It's hard to describe, but they did it in such a way that I cannot be mistaken.

Well as I demonstrated in post 1557, the pixies need more than those three characteristics to create a universe like the one that exists.

 

[Whatsisface]

Well as I demonstrated in post 1557, the pixies need more than those three characteristics to create a universe like the one that exists.

You didn't demonstrate, you asserted.

 

[Whatsisface]

Deep down you know there is a God.

Nah. It's deep down you know there isn't, right? How can we determine who is right?

 

[CrowCross]

Nah. It's deep down you know there isn't, right? How can we determine who is right?

Yes, I have already shown you how.

 

[Whatsisface]

Yes, I have already shown you how.

What I have seen you present has always had logical fallacies.

 

[CrowCross]

What I have seen you present has always had logical fallacies.

You have demonstrated you are like a dog that doen't know when to come in from the rain.

 

[Whatsisface]

You have demonstrated you are like a dog that doen't know when to come in from the rain.

Which says nothing about the subject under discussion, which is another fallacy of thinking, a sort of Ad Hominem in this case.

 

[CrowCross]

Which says nothing about the subject under discussion, which is another fallacy of thinking, a sort of Ad Hominem in this case.

No, it simply presents why you without any logical reason call it a fallacy of thinking.