Richard7
Well-known member
So its not necessary but a good idea to repent constantly... I see. Once saved you are free of having to repent... is that right?
Tithing?
- Thread starter dberrie2020
- Start date
Richard7
Well-known member
The Bible talks clearly about restitution, so being it a sin to take from another or harm another, you are okay with claiming forgiveness ever covers the principle or commandment of making right to the best of our ability the damage we do... I see..
Richard7
Well-known member
Do you believe that the Bible has every day to day conversation, every word of the prophets, every word of Jesus Christ... your example above is so naive... Abraham did not write down everything he did day to day, month to month or year to year... yikes you Christians are so blind to reality...
Richard7
Well-known member
And you never want it to be either... chuckle.
Theo1689
Well-known member
What I "want" or what you "want" has nothing to do with anything.
True Christians (unlike Mormons) get baptized, because we love God and He is truly our Lord, so we obey Him gladly. But it is not part of the "gospel".
True Christians (unlike Mormons) give cheerfully to the church, because we love God and He is truly our Lord, so we obey Him gladly. But it is not part of the "gospel".
Over band over again, Mormons prove that they HATE God, and that Jesus is NOT truly their Lord, and the ONLY reason they ever do anything is for selfish gain.
Richard7
Well-known member
Give me some clarity here Theo... what are you trying to impress upon me?
So what is a true Christian, are there other kinds of Christians... oh my! Being its not a part of the Gospel then it not required for salvation? thx.
Give cheerfully, so if you did tithe, meaning 10% of your gain, would they still be cheerful... the protest we see here on this forum indicates that many of our christian posters don't like the idea its God Law... so of course they dismiss it as a Mosaic law when in fact it was practices way before the Mosaic Law...
Folks, something that the LDS never claim, is we feel christian just hate God... that's really a despicable thing to label us with, folks. Now Lucifer would teach something like that, makes you wonder where they get their false claims from... oh my!
Judges13:18
Well-known member
A Christian should give back whatever does not belong to him. What's your point?
Judges13:18
Well-known member
Judges13:18
Well-known member
James' 'faith without works' teaching is not the same argument as Paul's 'righteousness apart from works' teaching.
You become a saved person by receiving God's forgiveness through faith apart from the merit of your works. That is Paul's argument. You show that you have that faith and are saved by what you do. That's James' argument. Two different arguments. Two different definitions and usages of the word 'justified'.
Judges13:18
Well-known member
But you're making the LDS argument that tithing is a commandment of God that Abraham was under and justified by, and, therefore, required by us to be kept in order to be justified/saved, just as he was.
Richard7
Well-known member
Actually it's by his grace we are saved... faith alone or by faith alone is not scriptural.... you will not find the word "alone" Works are all considered as necessary ordinances and obedience... faith or the Hebrew word is "aman" or faithfulness....
Latter-day Saints believe that all human beings are on this earth to learn, grow, and progress, and ultimately return to the presence of God. However, this outcome is dependent on the grace of Jesus Christ and obedience to His teachings.
To Latter-day Saints, “grace” refers to the power of Christ to rescue human beings from the effects of death and sin. In other words, the grace made possible by Christ’s atonement enables all mankind to overcome death (through the power of the resurrection) and sin (through the power of forgiveness and sanctification). By this grace, individuals can also receive relief from trials or divine help and strength to overcome challenges, weaknesses, temptations, and sins, and begin life anew.
Without grace, or Christ’s divine gift, mankind could not be resurrected from death or overcome the inevitable effects of sin. However, Latter-day Saints believe that individuals also have an important part to play. According to Latter-day Saint beliefs, God desires not only to save His children from death, but also to help them grow and become like Him. To be true “partakers of the divine nature, then, individuals must choose to access Christ’s grace and be changed by its influence. Or in the Apostle James’ formulation, they show their faith in Christ’s grace “by [their] works.” The Book of Mormon, in conjunction with Christ’s call to faithful action in Matthew 7:21, further teaches that that each individual’s own efforts are necessary, though not sufficient, for salvation; for even “after all we can do,” it is only “by grace that we are saved” (2 Nephi 25:23).
Grace, the saving power of Jesus Christ, is central to Latter-day Saint doctrine
Latter-day Saints believe that all human beings are on this earth to learn, grow, and progress, and ultimately return to the presence of God. However, this outcome is dependent on the grace of Jesus Christ and obedience.
newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org
dberrie2020
Super Member
I'm not sure where you come up with some of your postulations--but I have never claimed tithing justified anyone.
So--could you give us a cite to back your claim?
dberrie2020
Super Member
Again--I don't find anyone taking issue with that claim.
I agree--Abraham obeyed because he believed God.
I'm not sure how that somehow discounts the testimony of the Lord--who testified the promises were due to the obedience of Abraham:
Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
That's God's grace because of Abraham's obedience. That's a faith with works, or--a living faith.
We receive His grace the same way--through a living faith, obedience to Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 5:9---King James Version
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Yes--and that can be shown--which you have not addressed:
Malachi 3:7-12---King James Version
7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of hosts.
12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the Lord of hosts."
Then tithing had it's roots in the gospel of Jesus Christ--not the Mosaic Law.
How so? Abraham was one of the fathers. SINCE the days of the fathers--- includes the fathers, and their days.
The accusation was not against Abraham, or the fathers--but against those who did not obey God, from the days of the fathers.
Sorry, but Abraham was centuries before the Covenant through the Mosaic Law. Abraham lived under the gospel, not the Mosaic Law. Tithing came through the gospel in Abraham's time.
dberrie2020
Super Member
That is correct--and you haven't addressed the evidence of that:
Malachi 3:7-12---King James Version
7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of hosts.
12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the Lord of hosts."
Judges--Abraham was one of the fathers--and an ordinance is a law.
Bonnie
Super Member
We have, multiple times...a true, living faith will always express itself in doing works of love, but they are done IN salvation, not FOR salvation. Ergo, those works are proof that one's faith us living. It isn't just intellectual acknowledgement, but active in love.
Mormons in general just cannot seem to wrap their minds and spirits around this concept. They have been so indoctrinated to believe that they must perform various works--like the temple works--to make themselves "worthy" of eternal life, that they cannot conceive that Jesus earned eternal life for us on the cross. It is the sad, ol', same ol' merit system.
But we don't get eternal life on our own merits, because WE HAVE NONE. We are too tainted by sin. We get eternal life on JESUS' merits! HIS merits are credited to us by grace through faith in Him and what He did for us on the cross. "For the wages of sin is death, but the GIFT of God is life eternal IN Christ Jesus our Lord."
What part of GIFT OF GOD do Mormons not understand?
Bonnie
Super Member
YAWN....this is LAW, fulfilled in Christ. We are no longer under LAW, but grace. The Aaronic priesthood is null and void, made obsolete by the new and better covenant of Grace in the blood of Jesus Christ, instead of bulls and goats. Your priesthoods are false and useless.
No, it did not. Mormons cannot seem to tell the difference between LAW and Gospel. No surprise there, since they do not have the HS.
The gospel preached in advance to Abe was the promise of the Messiah that would come from his lineage. Abe believed God and his faith was credited to him as righteousness. This is the Gospel. It has zero to do with tithing.
He was not one of many fathers, but is considered THE Father of the Hebrew people...long before the LoM was given.
Fathers--plural. The ancestors who came out of Egypt. They did not get the Law, except the Passover, until they got to Sinai. And they sinned, big time.
Abraham was THE Father of the Hebrew people..
Sorry, but the Gospel is not LAW
And tithing is LAW
Paul tells us what the Gospel is that Abe had--the promise of the Savior coming from his line, so that all nations of the earth would be blessed through him. He makes it clear that this promise was not based on law, but on faith--because Abe believed God and His promise to him, and that faith was credited to him as righteousness. That is Gospel.
Bonnie
Super Member
Once again, for dberrie, Richard, et.al.
Gal. 3:
This is Gospel. See anything about being blessed by works of the law--like tithing?
But what does Paul say about those who attempt to be righteous by obeying the law? He says they are under a curse!! Why? Because they cannot keep all of God's laws perfectly, never, ever stumbling
for their entire lives. Jesus alone never sinned.
To continue--
The LAW is NOT based on faith, and since tithing is a law, then it is NOT part of the Gospel, which IS based on faith!
We receive the promise of the Spirit BY FAITH, not by law.
Paul continues:
The Law came 430 years AFTER Abraham. Abe was under the Gospel, not under the Law. And the COMMAND to tithe came in the LoM, 430 years AFTER Abraham.
So, your church has been using Abe's one-time tithing gift to Melchizedek--from the spoils of a single battle--to attempt to prove that tithing was a law even before Moses, but your church is wrong. It is just using this one time tithe to force its members to tithe to your church, to enrich its coffers, and use tithing as spiritual blackmail to hold over its members, if they want to be worthy of getting into your temples so they can perform all of the ordinances and covenants therein, so they can be exalted to godhood--eternal life in Mormonese--after death.
The LDS church makes its members PAY for what Jesus suffered, bled, and died to give us as a gift--"For the wages of sin is death, but the GIFT of God is life eternal in Christ Jesus our Lord."
What part of "gift of God" do Mormons not understand?
Gal. 3:
This is Gospel. See anything about being blessed by works of the law--like tithing?
But what does Paul say about those who attempt to be righteous by obeying the law? He says they are under a curse!! Why? Because they cannot keep all of God's laws perfectly, never, ever stumbling
for their entire lives. Jesus alone never sinned.
To continue--
The LAW is NOT based on faith, and since tithing is a law, then it is NOT part of the Gospel, which IS based on faith!
We receive the promise of the Spirit BY FAITH, not by law.
Paul continues:
The Law came 430 years AFTER Abraham. Abe was under the Gospel, not under the Law. And the COMMAND to tithe came in the LoM, 430 years AFTER Abraham.
So, your church has been using Abe's one-time tithing gift to Melchizedek--from the spoils of a single battle--to attempt to prove that tithing was a law even before Moses, but your church is wrong. It is just using this one time tithe to force its members to tithe to your church, to enrich its coffers, and use tithing as spiritual blackmail to hold over its members, if they want to be worthy of getting into your temples so they can perform all of the ordinances and covenants therein, so they can be exalted to godhood--eternal life in Mormonese--after death.
The LDS church makes its members PAY for what Jesus suffered, bled, and died to give us as a gift--"For the wages of sin is death, but the GIFT of God is life eternal in Christ Jesus our Lord."
What part of "gift of God" do Mormons not understand?
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Richard7
Well-known member
And you Bonnie believed in faith alone.... but you guys added the word "alone".... why?
Judges13:18
Well-known member
I did address it. Tithing one time in response to a specific situation does not make it so tithing was a law. That's pure speculation. You have no evidence of that whatsoever. Nobody knows. And 'fathers' in Malachi 3:7 does not say what fathers did not keep the laws and ordinances of God (even if it did mean Abraham it still doesn't prove tithing was a law). But in the immediate context you can see it's probably talking about the sons of Jacob, not the time of Abraham. LDS theology concerning the law of Abraham is built on nothing but unverifiable speculation. We have no record of what law was known in the day of Abraham, outside of perhaps adultery, and murder.
But the point is, if tithing was a law that Abraham was under and had to keep in order to be justified, and so, by extension, a law that we too have to keep in order to be justified, that same law would also justify a person in the law of Moses (but we know it doesn't). For Paul said, if a law had been given (i.e. tithing) that could impart life, then life would have certainly come from the law of Moses. But it doesn't. So we know the law of tithing did not impart life in the day of Abraham. I mean, this is if you disagree with brotherofJared who says tithing doesn't justify. Feel free to sort out that disagreement between the two of you.
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Judges13:18
Well-known member
No, no, no!
Faith 'alone' is James' argument. Paul's argument for righteousness apart from the works of the law is often called faith 'alone' but it's actually called "righteousness apart from works" Romans 4:6. I've corrected more than one person about this, but among us critics of Mormonism we know what we mean when we refer to Paul's teaching as 'faith alone' when talking about how one becomes a justified/saved person.