Was Jesus death not sufficient?

[dingoling.]

Scripture indicates that Jesus suffering was necessary:

Luke 24:26, "Was it not necessary that the Messiah should suffer these things and then enter into his glory?"

Acts 17:3, "explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Messiah to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, ‘This is the Messiah, Jesus whom I am proclaiming to you."

Acts 26:22-23, "To this day I have had help from God, and so I stand here, testifying to both small and great, saying nothing but what the prophets and Moses said would take place: that the Messiah must suffer, and that, by being the first to rise from the dead, he would proclaim light both to our people and to the Gentiles."

Was Jesus suffering necessary? Was it necessary for Jesus to be scourged at the pillar, crowned with thorns, have his beard pulled out, marred beyond recognition, carry the cross...? What was the purpose of all this suffering? Was Jesus death not sufficient in itself - did he also had to suffer all these other things as well?

 

[Nondenom40]

Scripture indicates that Jesus suffering was necessary:

Luke 24:26, "Was it not necessary that the Messiah should suffer these things and then enter into his glory?"

Acts 17:3, "explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Messiah to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, ‘This is the Messiah, Jesus whom I am proclaiming to you."

Acts 26:22-23, "To this day I have had help from God, and so I stand here, testifying to both small and great, saying nothing but what the prophets and Moses said would take place: that the Messiah must suffer, and that, by being the first to rise from the dead, he would proclaim light both to our people and to the Gentiles."

Was Jesus suffering necessary? Was it necessary for Jesus to be scourged at the pillar, crowned with thorns, have his beard pulled out, marred beyond recognition, carry the cross...? What was the purpose of all this suffering? Was Jesus death not sufficient in itself - did he also had to suffer all these other things as well?

Read Isa 53 lately?

 

[dingoling.]

Read Isa 53 lately?

Yes I have. I memorized the entire passage Isaiah chapters 53 though 59 years ago. The question is why was it necessary for Jesus to suffer? Could he have lived to old age and passed away from "natural" causes and his death still have been effective?

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Scripture indicates that Jesus suffering was necessary:

Luke 24:26, "Was it not necessary that the Messiah should suffer these things and then enter into his glory?"

Acts 17:3, "explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Messiah to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, ‘This is the Messiah, Jesus whom I am proclaiming to you."

Acts 26:22-23, "To this day I have had help from God, and so I stand here, testifying to both small and great, saying nothing but what the prophets and Moses said would take place: that the Messiah must suffer, and that, by being the first to rise from the dead, he would proclaim light both to our people and to the Gentiles."

Was Jesus suffering necessary? Was it necessary for Jesus to be scourged at the pillar, crowned with thorns, have his beard pulled out, marred beyond recognition, carry the cross...? What was the purpose of all this suffering? Was Jesus death not sufficient in itself - did he also had to suffer all these other things as well?

Prophesy had to be fullfilled. Read Psalm22 for confirmation.

 

[dingoling.]

Prophesy had to be fullfilled. Read Psalm22 for confirmation.

Yes, but why was his suffering prophesied? Why was it necessary for him to suffer?

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Yes, but why was his suffering prophesied? Why was it necessary for him to suffer?

Because God said it and that,s good enough for me.

 

[romishpopishorganist]

Because God said it and that's good enough for me.

In terms of believing something, yes. If God said it, that is all that is necessary for me to believe it.

But the poster is not saying he does not believe what God said.

Theology is Faith seeking understanding. The poster is seeking to understand WHY it was necessary for Jesus to suffer, not WHETHER it was necessary for Jesus to suffer or THAT Jesus suffered.

And It think the poster asked a very good question. Protestants are always going on about "Jesus's death was sufficient" "Jesus paid the price" Jesus said "It is finished." All of which is true of course.

The point the poster is bringing out is---if Jesus's death was sufficient, why did he have to suffer and die? And if the cross itself is sufficient, why all the suffering prior to the cross?

WHY did Jesus have to suffer? That is what the poster is asking. Yes; God said it, therefore I believe it and I am sure the poster does. But WHY?

Note I already have a perspective on this; the poster wants the Protestant perspective.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

In terms of believing something, yes. If God said it, that is all that is necessary for me to believe it.

But the poster is not saying he does not believe what God said.

Theology is Faith seeking understanding. The poster is seeking to understand WHY it was necessary for Jesus to suffer, not WHETHER it was necessary for Jesus to suffer or THAT Jesus suffered.

And It think the poster asked a very good question. Protestants are always going on about "Jesus's death was sufficient" "Jesus paid the price" Jesus said "It is finished." All of which is true of course.

The point the poster is bringing out is---if Jesus's death was sufficient, why did he have to suffer and die? And if the cross itself is sufficient, why all the suffering prior to the cross?

WHY did Jesus have to suffer? That is what the poster is asking. Yes; God said it, therefore I believe it and I am sure the poster does. But WHY?

Note I already have a perspective on this; the poster wants the Protestant perspective.

The suffering and death of Jesus Christ was part of God’s plan to make available salvation to all mankind.

 

[dingoling.]

The suffering and death of Jesus Christ was part of God’s plan to make available salvation to all mankind.

Thanks for responding. But why do you think suffering was part of God's plan and not just the death of Jesus Christ?

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Thanks for responding. But why do you think suffering was part of God's plan and not just the death of Jesus Christ?

But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed” (Isaiah 53:3, 5) Without the shedding of blood there could be no atonement for our sins.

 

[dingoling.]

But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed” (Isaiah 53:3, 5) Without the shedding of blood there could be no atonement for our sins.

Is it true that without suffering there could be no atonement for our sins?

 

[Carbon]

Scripture indicates that Jesus suffering was necessary:

Luke 24:26, "Was it not necessary that the Messiah should suffer these things and then enter into his glory?"

Acts 17:3, "explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Messiah to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, ‘This is the Messiah, Jesus whom I am proclaiming to you."

Acts 26:22-23, "To this day I have had help from God, and so I stand here, testifying to both small and great, saying nothing but what the prophets and Moses said would take place: that the Messiah must suffer, and that, by being the first to rise from the dead, he would proclaim light both to our people and to the Gentiles."

Was Jesus suffering necessary? Was it necessary for Jesus to be scourged at the pillar, crowned with thorns, have his beard pulled out, marred beyond recognition, carry the cross...? What was the purpose of all this suffering? Was Jesus death not sufficient in itself - did he also had to suffer all these other things as well?

Jesus said he laid down his life for his sheep.
He suffered punishment and wrath for their sins and reconciled them back to God.

Just so you know, there is no need for a purgatory.

 

[Carbon]

Read Isa 53 lately?

Amen!

 

[Carbon]

Was Jesus suffering necessary? Was it necessary for Jesus to be scourged at the pillar, crowned with thorns, have his beard pulled out, marred beyond recognition, carry the cross...? What was the purpose of all this suffering? Was Jesus death not sufficient in itself - did he also had to suffer all these other things as well?

Jesus’ physical torture was part of the payment required for our sins. We are redeemed “with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect”
Jesus’ suffering on the cross showed the devastating nature of sin, the wrath of God, and cruelty of humanity.
If you understood the awful sinfulness of sin and how holy God is, you might catch a glimpse .

 

[dingoling.]

Jesus’ physical torture was part of the payment required for our sins. We are redeemed “with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect”
Jesus’ suffering on the cross showed the devastating nature of sin, the wrath of God, and cruelty of humanity.
If you understood the awful sinfulness of sin and how holy God is, you might catch a glimpse .

So are you saying that it wasn't just Jesus death that was required for payment for our sins but his other sufferings were too?

 

[Carbon]

So are you saying that it wasn't just Jesus death that was required for payment for our sins but his other sufferings were too?

I think it’s good to keep in mind that Jesus was a sacrifice from the very commencement of his earthly life. And that his collective sufferings are to be viewed as belonging to his work of substitution and of his mediatorial work.

Jesus was sustaining and occupying the place of the guilty. He was the just in the room of the unjust, the sinless in the room of the sinful, the innocent in the room of the guilty. He was in the room of those who are his, and such was the exchange that “our punishment became his.”

 

[romishpopishorganist]

The suffering and death of Jesus Christ was part of God’s plan to make available salvation to all mankind.

Yes: obviously.

WHY?

If you don't know, just say so.

 

[romishpopishorganist]

But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed” (Isaiah 53:3, 5) Without the shedding of blood there could be no atonement for our sins.

WHY?

Quoting a Bible verse that tells what we already know, namely "Jesus suffered and died so that we might be healed" doesn't answer the question---because no one was questioning that in the first place. We already believe and accept the teaching of Isaiah.

WHY was that necessary? WHY was the shedding of blood necessary for the atonement of our sins? Why the shedding of innocent blood?

 

[Carbon]

Yes: obviously.

WHY?

If you don't know, just say so.

Yes, that question would be in order.

 

[Nondenom40]

Yes I have. I memorized the entire passage Isaiah chapters 53 though 59 years ago. The question is why was it necessary for Jesus to suffer? Could he have lived to old age and passed away from "natural" causes and his death still have been effective?

Okay, have you read Ruth, Or the ton of other messianic prophecies in the bible? Many of which are specific to His suffering? Then there are those that speak of His death? Have you read Hebrews regarding the will and testament and when that takes affect? Or the sacrifice in general that is an immolation which has two parts, a death and the shedding of blood. Theres a lot there if you take the time to dig it up.