What is God proclaiming in these scriptures?
- Thread starter TheTruth
- Start date
No. The salvation of man or the creation of His children is purely an act of God, because if whatever we do to move toward God or to be drawn by Him it is still Him causing it. So, if God is causing it to occur, then how is it conditioned on us?
PeanutGallery
Well-known member
Does this verse mean that we cause God to be pleased to save one that believes?
1Cor 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
No. If God causes whoever believes to believe, then as a unbeliever we can't go from a unbeliever to a believer on our own. So, God must do something that causes the unbeliever to believe.
PeanutGallery
Well-known member
Right we don't cause God to be pleased; it pleases God to save those who believe. The verse does not state God causes someone to believe.
1Cor 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
If "we don't cause God to be pleased" and God is still pleased "to save those who believe", then whose belief pleases God in saving man?
He is also called "the Word", the gospel of Lord Jesus Christ.
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God; 2 this one was in the beginning with God;
3 all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened. John 1:1-3
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but -- to proclaim good news; not in wisdom of discourse, that the cross of the Christ may not be made of none effect; 18 for the word of the cross to those indeed perishing is foolishness, and to us -- those being saved -- it is the power of God, 19 for it hath been written, `I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the intelligence of the intelligent I will bring to nought;' 20 where [is] the wise? where the scribe? where a disputer of this age? did not God make foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 for, seeing in the wisdom of God the world through the wisdom knew not God, it did please God through the foolishness of the preaching to save those believing. 1 Corinthians 1:15-21
PeanutGallery
Well-known member
Yes, God saves those who believe, and the gospel is the power of God to save those who believe.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
I do not see a problem there.
It is conditioned upon us according to how we either accept or reject Christ as Savior.
The act of God to undertake Salvation is His Provision. Entry into that provision is our decision. Reading determonistic doctrine into Scripture's Message of Salvation is the tail wagging the dog.
Christ being the Alpha and Omega, Creator and Judge in no manner describes what happens in between those beginning and concluding events such that human will is excluded. God is so providential His Omega outcome is still accomplished regardless of whatever any Man, or Satan, will decide to do.
Remember, Reformism largely restated and continued the basic errors of Romanism. Calvin avoided Christ's Gospel of Mercy and Forgiveness. He exhibited no fruits of the Spirit in his complicity upon murder of his detractors. By their works shall you know them.
Up to a point, this is true for the believer.
It really has nothing to do with "will or effort" (Romans 9:16) To desire righteousness is just as much a factor in the lives of legalistic Pharisees so that's neither here nor there.
Again, it's important to note the past tense as well as the chronology of events within the context of John's letters.
And sanctification is not a process of justification for sin.
No. He doesn't.
And where there is light, there can be no darkness. Note that darkness still exists. It just doesn't exist in the light.
Agreed.
Well put.
No, he doesn't. Again, look at the chronology of events articulated in his letters.
Yes, it's clear that they are professing Christians rather than confessing Christians.
John clearly lays out a chronology of events which doesn't include the ability to sin with impunity which is what you're presenting and is no different than those who profess to be followers of Christ, but clearly aren't. At least they can keep the law without making silly excuses.
A new day
Super Member
I NEVER said a person could remain in a sinful lifestyle as they did before being saved. What I said was, and restated in a second post was that no Christian can lay claim to living a perfectly sinless life, this side of heaven without ever having sinned ever again. When we (collectively speaking) stumble, but then carry on as if nothing happened; it hinders our relationship with God.
So let me reiterate the list of sins from a previous post in this thread; that some Christians claim, (collectively speaking) that they have never commit since becoming a Christian. See people in general speaking don't want to admit that they did anything wrong, and this includes Christians. Mankind is really good at passing the buck.
Anger,
backbiting,
expressing unkind thoughts of another,
bitterness,
boasting,
ridiculing another person,
complaining about what you can't do,
complaining about don't have,
contentiousness,
foul language,
breaking an agreement,
covetousness,
craftiness (as in wrong doing),
deceit,
desiring praise from men,
causing divisions,
double tongued,
taking communion in an unworthily manner,
envy,
desiring something forbidden,
provoking someone to anger,
fearfulness,
anxiousness,
not recognizing your own faults,
bearing false witness,
greediness,
hatred,
arrogance,
hypocrisy,
speaking words that have no value,
refusing to be appeased,
passion or lust,
pursuing material possessions,
being fond of gratification,
selfishness,
maliciousness,
having bad character,
mocking,
presumptuousness,
pride,
puffed up,
slandering,
stirring up opposition against authority,
taking false oaths,
unforgiveness,
not being thankful,
false humility,
failing to do something but should have.
How does one go from an unbeliever to a believer; what makes a unbeliever believe when a unbeliever isn't doing what is required in order to make the truth and reality of God known to them, what makes them believe? Is it something man does or God, or is it something man does in accordance with God?
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but -- to proclaim good news; not in wisdom of discourse, that the cross of the Christ may not be made of none effect;
18 for the word of the cross to those indeed perishing is foolishness, and to us -- those being saved -- it is the power of God,
19 for it hath been written, `I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the intelligence of the intelligent I will bring to nought;'
20 where [is] the wise? where the scribe? where a disputer of this age? did not God make foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 for, seeing in the wisdom of God the world through the wisdom knew not God, it did please God through the foolishness of the preaching to save those believing. 1 Corinthians 1:15-21
How does one go from an unbeliever to a believer; what makes a unbeliever believe when a unbeliever isn't doing what is required (believing) in order to make the truth and reality of God known to them, what makes them believe? Is it something man does or is it something man does in accordance with God?
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but -- to proclaim good news; not in wisdom of discourse, that the cross of the Christ may not be made of none effect; 18 for the word of the cross to those indeed perishing is foolishness, and to us -- those being saved -- it is the power of God, 19 for it hath been written, `I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the intelligence of the intelligent I will bring to nought;' 20 where [is] the wise? where the scribe? where a disputer of this age? did not God make foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 for, seeing in the wisdom of God the world through the wisdom knew not God, it did please God through the foolishness of the preaching to save those believing. 1 Corinthians 1:15-21
Strawman argument. I'm not making this distinction to begin with. God's law doesn't make this distinction either. God's law distinguishes between intentional and unintentional sin. Just FYI, intentional sin was never remedied by sacrifice so whatever sins one intentionally or knowingly commits cannot be covered by Christ's sacrifice because Christ came to fulfill the Mosaic law and the Mosaic law doesn't allow for that scenario.
I agree, but then I'm not talking about sinful Christians. I'm referring to those who walk after the Spirit, and we both agree that Christians aren't doing that.
Even intentional sins can be covered, provided that there is genuine repentance, under the Davidic formula in Psalm 51:
16 You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it;
you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings.
17 My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart
you, God, will not despise.
Our Lord's God
Well-known member
If we have been cleansed from all sin, we then have no sin.
If we have sinned and we confess our sins, he cleanses us from all sin.
If we have been cleansed from all sin, we then have no sin.
Many say they believe who do not.
A new day
Super Member
The above statement makes an accusation, and now your claiming my reply to the above statement is a strawman
Interesting... David killed Uriah with both eyes wide open, in other words; what David did was deliberate and planned out. He had plenty of time to think it over and not do it. It most certainly was not a spur of the moment thing. Even so, God says to David through Nathan.
2 Samual 12:13
Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” Nathan replied, “The LORD has taken away your sin"
Interesting that God forgives David in spite of David knowing better. David knew God's written law well and certainly could not claim he didn't know any better or wasn't aware. So, if God can take away sin from David, without David offering a sin sacrifice first; he can also cleanse us today when we stumble. Notice that Nathan doesn't tell David in the passage above to first go offer a sacrifice, then God will take away your sin. Instead, it says immediately after David's confession that the Lord had taken the sin away, already.
I know many here are parents of children under the age of 18. So let me ask you. When your kids disobey you, even though they know better. Did you throw them out of your home the first time they disobeyed you, and never speak to them ever again? Did you stop loving them? Of course not!!. You love your children, so you are willing to forgive them when they do wrong even when they commit the same offense a second and third time. So why would you think that God would be any different?
Correction: an observation.
It is. You're addressing claims I never made.
I would say it's fascinating.
Yes, these are synonyms for intentional sin.
Agreed. I suppose you think you've made a point here, but unless you can find someplace in Nathan's statement where a sacrifice occurs, you're off on a wild goose hunt.
I never claimed God wouldn't forgive sins without sacrifice. I merely pointed out a fundamental distinction within the Mosaic law; one which you are continuing to ignore.
Very true.
Sure, but as I pointed out earlier, Christ's sacrifice doesn't cover intentional sin. You still aren't addressing that fact.
Yes! Exactly!
Bingo!
Fallacy of the Ad Hominem. This isn't about me.
Those who follow Jesus obey every utterance from God to the absolute best of their abilties. Many believe and do not obey because they think their sin is forgiven automatic but it isnt--- Acts 3:19--Repent and turn around( stop doing the sin) to get sins blotted out. Just asking forgiveness does not cut it.
Hebrews 10:26--- There is no sacrifice left for any who practice a sin.
This is how it's done under the Old Testament. God told Moses to bring the children of Israel before Him that He "may prove them". They told Moses to tell God that they would rather do whatever God asks of them to the best of their abilities.
Paul points out that it has nothing to do with one's will or abilities, but God's mercy.
"For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."
Yes, and when we look at Hebrews 9:15, we see that it is only under the "first testament" that sins are forgiven; not under the second. There can only be one of two reasons for why this is the case: 1. no one sins under the second testament, or 2. those who do are damned because "there remains no more sacrifice for sins."
Which one of those sounds like good news to you? I am always amazed at how many people find the latter to be the gospel, but then the flesh loves to sin so it makes perfect sense.
Heb 10:26--There is no sacrifice left for any who practice a sin. Jesus teaches the same at Matt 7:22-23- one who works iniquity( lawlessness)= a practice of a sin.
It is Grace even to those who do their very best because they still sin in small ways. They do not do these sins-1Cor 6:9-11, or Gal 5:19-21--both spots are clear, if one practices one of these sins--they will not enter Gods kingdom.
John 14:15-24--obeying Jesus is proof of ones love for him. And he taught--Man does not live by bread alone, but by EVERY utterance from God--- he meant it. He meant everything he taught.
The only way one can do that is by studying Gods word regularly, it never ends.