Please document where David lived in the spirit while shirking his military responsibility, lusting after another man's wife, and sending her husband to his death.
What is God proclaiming in these scriptures?
- Thread starter TheTruth
- Start date
No. I mean like believers. Believers are told numerous times in the Bible to seek God's will and not our own.
Just what do you mean when you say "free will"? Do you mean that believers are free to reject God?
The Bible.
Why do you think unbelievers have "free will to choose Christ", when God draws and saves?
And if we can't choose Him without "the Holy Spirit inside of us" influencing our belief, then why do you think salvation is something you done without God making it occur.
Either way; this is God doing it and not us. The most we can say is that God makes new believers believe in accordance with His will.
CharismaticLady
Well-known member
Yes. It is called apostasy.
Hebrews 3:
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:
“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
But @The Truth, do not continue in this line of conversation with me about our free will. I'm telling you right now, you will never convince me that we do not have free will to choose. So drop it.
Beloved Daughter
Super Member
There is not a single verse of scripture that says we have free will unto salvation. Did you ask God for His personal guidance regarding the lack of verses proclaiming that? You've already done that, what would stop you doing the same thing?
John 6:37-39 King James Version (KJV)
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I /should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:44 King James Version (KJV)
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Romans 9:14-24 King James Version (KJV)
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Ephesians 1:3-11 King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Ephesians 2:8-10 King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Acts 13:48 King James Version (KJV)
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Colossians 2:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
1 Peter 1:3 King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
2 Timothy 2:25 King James Version (KJV)
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
Romans 8:26-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
This is called the golden chain of redemption.
Not a word about free will since God does the choosing before the foundation of the world.
Beloved Daughter
Super Member
See, you can't stop everyone from discussing what you don't want to.
Beloved Daughter
Super Member
I don't believe in sinless perfectionism. It's a serious heresy.
I know you don't love the Apostle Paul but let's see what he says about himself.
Romans 7:14-25
14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
So, I have to ask, are you better than God's chosen Apostle? I don't think you do, but you have to read and understand scripture before you adopt heretical doctrines.
Okay, then at least explain how a believer can reject God?
And how can it be "apostasy" when I have dozens of verses supporting my claim and you have none to support yours?
Your inability to provide biblical support and an argument for your claim doesn't make what your saying true at all my dear. Why do you have a problem with God being in control, when He is the only one capable of making things right in your life? I have read some of your threads and I can see that you have struggles, so does everyone including me. But it was only after letting go of the sin struggle and letting God take over that I got any victory, it is in the belief and realization that His Holy Spirit (Him) guides me now that things really work toward righteousness. And it isn't me doing it, but Him in me.
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CharismaticLady
Well-known member
Free will. LOL
1 Thessalonians 5:19
19 Do not quench the Spirit.
Q: Who can quench the Spirit? A:Those who HAVE the Spirit. Q: How, if you are a robot? A: We are not robots; we have free will.
Now that is funny, seeing as it is in response to a quote from Hebrews 3.
1 John 5:18 18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.
First when we repent God takes away our sin nature which causes us to be born again and are freed from the sin nature.
But we still have free will, so WE must keep ourselves pure by us walking in the Spirit.
1 John 3:1-3 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
God makes us children of God (born of God), but we are responsible for not sinning sins NOT unto death by maturing in the fruit of the Spirit. 2 Peter 1:5-11.
5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Romans 6:15-23
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Truth, even though we have been freed from sin through being born again (Romans 6:6-7), we are still responsible. So though we have no desire to sin, Paul says, why sin when you don't have to? That is why Hebrews 10:26-31 is so important. Our free will is still intact; otherwise, we could not WILLFULLY sin.
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
David was Gods anointed king. He gave into his flesh at that point, he could have been stoned to death but he repented. Solomon his son, God said was the wisest man who ever lived( at that point) yet he fell to false god worship in the end. Satan is powerful, he continuously attacks Gods people, relentlessly. Anyone can fall.
CharismaticLady
Well-known member
David didn't get away with anything. God took David's newborn son. David sorely repented. Read Psalms 51.
Agreed.
He could have been stoned to death before he repented. It isn't like it was a secret to those in authority.
None of this proves or supports the claim that those who walk after the spirit fulfill the lust of the flesh. I honestly don't understand how or why people think they can come up with an argument that contradicts what the bible clearly teaches.
rossh
Well-known member
The actual scriptures/Gods Word, is saying what it is saying! No interpretation needed nor asked for, nor wanted.
That sounds more like a slave to sin than "free will". So, if we do God's will rather than our own, then we are "robots"?
What you claim makes no sense at all in regards to the God of the Bible. Keep in mind here now that I am referring to God's will and not a man's.
Strawman, that was a response to your misinterpretation of Hebrews 3.
Okay. But, is it because of "himself" that they do "not sin" and are able to "keep himself" or because of God?
So, before "God takes away our sin nature which causes us to be born again"; do we have "free will"?
And after "God takes away our sin nature which causes us to be born again"; whose will are we doing and following then?
So, do "WE" have "free will" without "us walking in the Spirit"?
Also, does God have the "free will" to do contrary to His own nature and will? And if not, then isn't a child of His supposed to now have the same kind of nature and not self-contradictory like the unbeliever?
The term "free will" in this sense is synonymous with self-contradictory or self-refuting in regards to God and how He saves and keeps His children, in other words how He creates His children/believers.
So, "after we have received the knowledge of the truth", in other words received the Holy Spirit, and "there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins", but because of the Holy Spirit we now have a "certain fearful expectation of judgment", then wouldn't this still be God that provides the believer escape from sin or not?
Also, if one believes God and receives the Holy Spirit, then how do they then choose for themselves their own demise (reject God) and what a unbeliever chooses for himself, rather than what God and His Spirit provides through their belief? What you are suggesting is impossible.
CharismaticLady
Well-known member
As I told you before, I'm not discussing free will with you...
That's because you can't support your claim, there is no mention of man having "free will" to choose God in the Bible. A matter of fact the Bible mentions and commands the need to follow God's will rather than our own. Even the Lord's Prayer does just that.
100 Bible Verse Proclaiming that God's Will Be Done
The Holy Spirit reveals the truth and reality of God only to its believer.
Believers can't be destroyed by satan.
rossh
Well-known member
? " it's " believers ??? seriously ?
Best to believe Jesus on that matter--Matthew 7:21-23-- these all believe, yet only those living now to do Jesus Fathers will get to enter his kingdom. The rest who believe, yet work iniquity( practice a sin) will hear those words from Jesus as judgement. He Says to them--Get away from me, you who work iniquity, i must confess i never even knew you.
So it takes more than believing. Jesus summed it up nicely in a single teaching---Man does not live by bread alone, but by EVERY utterance from God.= his Fathers will. Thus its a 100% guarantee, the real teachers on earth that have Jesus make sure that is accomplished. The very best way that is done is by giving the flock a bible reading, like -Genesis chapters 1-3--for the weeks study, then discussing it at the spiritual meeting together, the teacher explaining the harder points then asking the flock to express what they liked from the reading. That way every point is covered. Then the following week-Genesis chapters 4-6, etc,etc it never ends. year after year it never ends.