Will the American howitzers result in a battle field decapitation of Russia?
- Thread starter Thistle
- Start date
Reepicheep
Well-known member
I am pleased to report that numerous countries, and not just the US, have provided Ukraine with howitzers:
- six M777 155mm howitzers - Australia
- four M777 155mm howitzers - Canada
- unspecified number and model - Czech Republic
- nine D30 howitzers - Estonia
- unspecified number of CAESAR 155mm howitzers - France
- seven Panzerhaubitze 2000 155mm howitzers - Germany
- unspecified number of M109L howitzers - Italy
- unspecified number of Panzerhaubitze 2000 155mm howitzers - Italy
- unspecified number of Panzerhaubitze 2000 155mm howitzers - The Netherlands
- five M114A1 155mm howitzers - Portugal
- ninety M777 155mm howitzers - USA
- six M777 155mm howitzers - Australia
- four M777 155mm howitzers - Canada
- unspecified number and model - Czech Republic
- nine D30 howitzers - Estonia
- unspecified number of CAESAR 155mm howitzers - France
- seven Panzerhaubitze 2000 155mm howitzers - Germany
- unspecified number of M109L howitzers - Italy
- unspecified number of Panzerhaubitze 2000 155mm howitzers - Italy
- unspecified number of Panzerhaubitze 2000 155mm howitzers - The Netherlands
- five M114A1 155mm howitzers - Portugal
- ninety M777 155mm howitzers - USA
Thistle
Well-known member
So if Ukraine succeeds in decapitating the command and control of the Russian effort in theate, who do you think the Russians will strike first with nuclear weapons?
Harry Leggs
Super Member
He did say America is fighting a certain type of warfare that does not involve troops/boots on the ground but we all know that can change in an instant. Assuming American targets are attacked and destroyed like a ship at sea or even NATO target. Our opposition is not going to play by our preferences on how we would like to conduct warfare. The Ruskies know what is going on and they are getting more experienced every day. It would not surprise me to see boots on the ground in the near future assuming Ukraine can hold out. I don't know all that is going on over there. It is not like a chess game where we can observe and analyze the moves. It sounds like Ukraine is running out of fighters and who is funding all those Ukraine Nazi type groups? Ole Joe? Is our money funding Ukraine Nazi fighters? Is ole Joe in bed with Ukraine right-wingers? Where is the wall to wall coverage on that?
Reepicheep
Well-known member
You seem so terrified of Russia using nuclear weapons that you are willing to do everything in your power to help Putin slaughter Ukrainian civilians. If you believe it is the will of the god that you worship that Putin win this war, then I recommend you do everything in your power to help Putin win.
inertia
Super Member
The prototype - ... directly hit a target at a 70 km range ( about 43.5 miles ).
Question: Did the United States actually send its latest extended range cannon artillery, self-propelled howitzer to Ukraine?
I ask because its prototype demonstration was tested not that long ago in mid December 2020.
In other news, the Pentagon denies providing intelligence to target Russian Generals.
The anxiety effect of uncertainty:
When a disruption of vital communication systems occurs and/or a false detection of an imminent attack is considered real, the ability to make real-time decisions correctly becomes tenuous, possibly tenuous enough to employ the nuclear option.
If Russia wants to deliver on its current nuclear extortion strategy allowing them to beat-up nations at will - without impunity - due to the fear that nuclear weapons might be used when the proverbial and illusive line in the sand is crossed, their current usefulness for status quo nuclear deterrence will drop geometrically and create anxiety by spreading out a general sense of vulnerability to a counter-strike.
Lines of communication must be open to prevent uncertainty. Everyone in the chain of command understands this.
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Theophilos
Well-known member
The mishmash of artillery being sent to Ukraine is unlikely to have much effect on the outcome. If it did, a simple solution for the Russians is to keep generals out of artillery range.
Russia is targeting the Ukrainian rail system and weapons depots with cruise missiles. Any major weapons that somehow make it to the front will be attacked by Russian artillery, aircraft and/or cruise missiles. Artillery requires large amount of ammunition to have much effect.
The US army relies on air support, but the Russian army relies on artillery. Reports are that Russia has been using artillery with great effect in eastern Ukraine.
Curiously many of the same people who were melting down about the US targeting an Iranian general in Iraq, are celebrating claims of US involvement in similar attacks against Russia.
'Risking an All-Out War': How US Papers Responded to the Killing of Iran's Soleimani
Most major newspapers across the US were unconvinced that Donald Trump had made the right choice.
thewire.in
Harry Leggs
Super Member
Another i wanted to mention about the 40 billion funding of the Ukraine war. Joe Biden defunded South Vietnam and that is why they fell to the communists. So hopefully Joe Biden will be defunded with his push for 40 billion (?) for Ukraine.
Thistle
Well-known member
You make an extremely pressing point here. It's hard to see how a tactical nuclear weapon would be of much use really within the borders of Ukraine. Yet the Russians keep on jawboning about the use of nuclear weapons which would suggest to me that they would hit Poland or some other NATO country in order to draw NATO into the conflict and change the status quo inertia of resolve on the part of NATO.
This seems to be exactly what Putin is doing not that he has some grand strategy, but that he is willing to be audacious in terms of engaging a provocation to change the calculation on the strategic board.
This is kind of the dumb luck theory where you create a new set of circumstances for no strategic reason, other than to determine whether you like those circumstances better than the ones that you have. I don't think people in the west understand exactly how dangerous this game is.
Every time we see Putin there is 30 yards of physical distance between him and all of his advisers. I don't know how anyone looks at that and doesn't conclude that no one is close enough to Vladimir Putin to give him any news that he doesn't want to receive. That means if you're counting on someone with a "cooler head" to prevail in their decision-making structure, you may need to move onto your next most hopeful wish. Because that one is looking pretty doubtful…
We have had Delta force operatives in Ukraine teaching their fighters how to use the advanced weaponry for sometime; many weeks. For obvious reasons this is not officially acknowledge but in military circles this is an open secret.
You bring up another good point. What kind of people will walk into a situation like this, to fight "the former Soviet Union?" Well you could probably recruit a bunch of right wing identitarian Nazi wackos from all over the world, just like you could recruit Islamist terrorist sympathizers from all over the world to fight the US in Afghanistan.
Thistle
Well-known member
"Terrified" is your rhetorical bludgeon. Far be it from me to demand that you stop whistling through the graveyard. But in point of fact, I'm simply acknowledging what the Russians have been saying repeatedly that everyone else wants to avoid.
My policy preferences to let Zelenskyy come to an amicable peaceful solution with Russia, in which case all of these people who are dead would be alive.
I'm sorry but I have no belief in a small g god of any description.
You have really taken a leave of your senses, haven't you?
Why would I take advice from someone who is clearly off his rocker?
Friend, consider calling your psychiatrist about adjusting your medication. It's just a suggestion…
Reepicheep
Well-known member
I don't know what kind of howitzer shells other countries are sending to Ukraine, but Canada is sending state of the art M982 Excalibur shells which use both GPS and ISS (inertial) guidance systems and have a range of 25 miles (EDIT: correction, 35 miles). Very effective weapons.
If you believe it is the will of the god you worship that Russia continue to slaughter Ukrainian civilians, then I suggest you do everything in your power to help Putin win this war.
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Reepicheep
Well-known member
You believe it is the will of the god you worship that all the nations of the world should instantly give in to all of Putin's demands, no matter how evil those demands are, in order to avoid a nuclear war. Correct?
If Putin threatens to launch a massive nuclear assault against the United States unless the US burns alive all American children under the age of two, what do you think the US should do?
Thistle
Well-known member
That's what is being reported in the news.
Right! The accuracy depends on the kind of ammunition that we are shipping with those howitzers. Some of the ammunition types are so accurate that they literally can pull off a command structure decapitation operation in conjunction with sufficiently accurate intelligence. And signal intelligence (the kind that we are very good at) is the best explanation for how we've been able to take out Russian generals so far. I do use the term "we've" advisedly.
Thank heavens somebody has a good sense to deny what we're doing. But naturally when you have the combination of a admission and a denial, coupled with the fact that affirms the admission, I don't have to tell you what people rationally believe.
I'm gratified to see that you're taking this concern seriously enough to acknowledge it. I hope that that's an indication of a broader recognition sufficiently to be detected by the political advisors of our current administration. Heaven knows if foreign policy considerations on their own would be enough to actually influence of foreign policy decision with this current team in the White House.
Have you seen any of these recent press events involving Vladimir Putin? He is not within 30 yards of any of his advisers. It seems patently obvious to me that there is no one "close enough"to Vladimir Putin to tell him anything he doesn't want to already hear. And going on the theory that his top advisors can't read his mind that would suggest to me that Vladimir Putin is operating this operation without any adequate intelligence of what's going on at all.
As to your suggestion about Putin's strategic thinking I believe that's completely misplaced. I don't think that Putin is thinking strategically at all. To my mind of Putin appears to be contemplating provocative actions that will change the assumptions on the strategic board. I can't think of any tactical reason to use a nuclear weapon in Ukraine, as it appears consistent with current US military doctrine that the offensive capability is widely dispersed and not subject to elimination by a nuclear strike.
So if we illuminate using nuclear weapons in the theater of action the next most likely place would be in nearby supporting nations like Poland. There would not be a strategic reason to do this it would simply be to create new conditions and assess whether those new conditions are more favorable to Russia than the conditions currently. The current conditions are not favorable to Russia we have large-scale cooperation by NATO against Russia and from Russia's perspective changing that status quo could hardly be worse from their point of view.
This is precisely the kind of decision that is available to a leader who can no longer get actual "advice" from his advisers, on the ground that they will be disappeared if they make one wrong move. China is already in that circumstance.
Russia may be significantly past the point of no return on that hopeful thought. Do you have a second most hopeful wish? Because that may end up being our go to silver lining.
This may be a parent to everyone in our chain of command… Hopefully. The difficulty comes in on that last link to Vladimir Putin on the Russian side.
Why do you need to know?
Thistle
Well-known member
Irony is lost on the Democrat party.
Thistle
Well-known member
I'm inclined to believe that we still have people in our military who are competent enough to keep military secrets. So I'm not entirely sure that our current apparent inability to get warm material where it needs to be in Ukraine is as compromised as is seemingly reported in the press. It may be, but it's hard to really know.
Thistle
Well-known member
$40 billion does sound like a lot of money, doesn't it.
Theophilos
Well-known member
If NATO is stupid enough to send its state-of-the-art weapons to Ukraine, expect they will be immediately sold on the black market to the Russians for reverse engineering.
Thistle
Well-known member
Well that answers that question assuming your answer is correct. With those munitions and those howitzers and our signal intelligence, it is quite conceivable that Ukraine could pull off a decapitation operation of the Russian leadership in theater. So, if you think that the benefit of that is greater than the risk that it will precipitate a nuclear strike then I suppose that's good; right?
But as I mentioned to @inertia above I can't see any tactical reason to use nukes within the borders of Ukraine. So if Russia does go nuclear, it's likely to deploy against a NATO member like Poland, not for any strategic reason, but simply to change the strategic inertia on the board.
So far as NATO's resolve and unity on this subject, things could hardly be worse for Russia, so whatever they might do in terms of upending the strategic board, is at least potentially better for Russia than the status quo. This I'm afraid, is precisely the kind of decision that is open to a leader who's top advisors can't get within 30 yards of him as is the case with Vladimir Putin and all of the most recent video that we have seen.
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Theophilos
Well-known member
Close to half of Ukraine is Russian. There is no way to keep secrets from the Russians in Ukraine.
I see evidence of internal struggle within the US government. Elements within the intel agencies are leaking reports of targeting Russian officers, the Pentagon is denying them. Of course, openly admitting that the US is targeting Russian generals means that NATO generals are likely targets as well.
Pentagon Denies US Intel Helped Ukrainian Forces Target, Kill Russian Generals
The Pentagon has denied a sourced report claiming United States intelligence officials helped the Ukrainian armed forces target, or even kill Russian generals in the Russia-Ukraine war.
www.newsmax.com