Treatise from Issues, Etc. about how Paul writes about "faith alone"....

[LifeIn]

To be absent from the body is to be present with Christ.
Is this more irrational certainty?
If so, then faith itself is irrational certainty, to which I would agree. Nothing about faith passes the rational test or we would all unbelieve and become atheist or agnostic. Miracles, life after death, etc. affront reasonableness apart from the irrational certainty of faith. But these things do not advocate that we abandon faith for reasoned or rational certainty. What of Abraham and Isaac and the sacrifice God would provide? Yet this is yet another example of irrational certainty epitomizing the possession of the freely given gift of faith.

Peace ?

There are many many things that are certain. But it is irrational to be certain about everything. Sometimes uncertainty is appropriate.

 

[Nic]

There are many many things that are certain. But it is irrational to be certain about everything. Sometimes uncertainty is appropriate.

You are seemingly unaware of the historical context of Luther's phrase "monster of uncertainty." It's specifically referred to resounding confidence in being justified by God, which correlates to Person and redemptive work of Christ.
Here's an excerpted understanding from Pr. Matt Richard, Defeating the Monster of Uncertainty.

​

Certainty, my friends, is found in Christ, not self. Certainty is found in Jesus’ life, not ours. Certainty is found in the historic event of Jesus’ atonement, not the events of our life. Certainty is found in the Christ, not the Christian. Certainty lies outside of us, not within. Certainty is in Jesus. The good news of the Gospel is that it is the certainty of the cross that truly devours the Monster of Uncertainty.​

​

Nic ?

 

[Nic]

Just to clarify my opening statement in the preceding comment, the "monster of uncertainty" is doubt pitted against confidence of being justified by faith in Christ because of Christ. Salvation occurs extra nos.

 

[dberrie2020]

Eph 2:8-9 KJV
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Bonnie doesn't violate scripture. Your deceitful presentation of scripture does.

What part of "not by works" don't you get?

I'm not sure how you are relating God extending His salvational grace to them which keep His commandments --as being saved by works?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Can one obtain righteousness who doesn't receive remission of sins by believing in Christ Jesus'name?

No--but that only connects repentance and water baptism as being integral to believing in Christ:

Acts 2:38---King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Romans 10 tells us....
“There is no one righteous" Do you honestly think you can work your way into righteousness?

I believe righteousness takes effort to achieve:

1 John 3:7---King James Version
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

People who believe otherwise are deceived, IMO.

Romans 6:16---King James Version
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

 

[dberrie2020]

Only a true believer feareth him, and worketh righteousness...a non believer can't feareth him, and worketh righteousness.

Labeling one a believer or non believer does nothing to annul the connection between "worketh righteousness" and being "accepted with him".

Acts 10:35---King James Version
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Do you keep the commandments? I say no.

Your opinion of who keeps the commandments and who does not --has nothing to do with the testimony connecting keeping the commandments and God's grace:

Revelation 22:14---King James Version
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Then tell us my mormon friend...how much "obedience" is required to receive the Holy Spirit?

The exact same as how much faith it will require.

What is the promise?

Hebrews 10:36---King James Version
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

1 John 2:25---King James Version
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

What is the reward the preceeding verse mentions?

1 Cor 3:12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames.

Those who inherit eternal life don't suffer loss. One might be condemned, and still inherit some form of glory:

2 Corinthians 3:9---King James Version
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

Paul seemed to believe there were other options with God, other than the all or nothing, as it pertains to glory.

None of that breaks the connection between God's grace of eternal life-- and our obedience:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

 

[dberrie2020]

You are seemingly unaware of the historical context of Luther's phrase "monster of uncertainty." It's specifically referred to resounding confidence in being justified by God, which correlates to Person and redemptive work of Christ.
Here's an excerpted understanding from Pr. Matt Richard, Defeating the Monster of Uncertainty.

​

Certainty, my friends, is found in Christ, not self. Certainty is found in Jesus’ life, not ours. Certainty is found in the historic event of Jesus’ atonement, not the events of our life. Certainty is found in the Christ, not the Christian. Certainty lies outside of us, not within. Certainty is in Jesus. The good news of the Gospel is that it is the certainty of the cross that truly devours the Monster of Uncertainty.​

​

Nic ?

Nic--I wouldn't disagree with most of that, but I would point out that a covenant is a two party agreement--it isn't a 100% engagement on one side---and a 0% on the other--as some might postulate.

There are conditions to receiving His Blood unto the forgiveness of sins:

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The Lutherans talk the talk--but they deny the walk:

Matthew 15:8---King James Version
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

 

[dberrie2020]

Christians believe a lot of concepts found in the Bible, that are not labeled, such as the Triune Godhead/Trinity; Virgin Birth; Hypostatic Union....so this "faith alone" is also one of these.

Although the term "Trinity" or "Hypostatic Union" isn't found in the Biblical text--the term "faith alone" is:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

 

[CrowCross]

I'm not sure how you are relating God extending His salvational grace to them which keep His commandments --as being saved by works?

OH MY GAWD...did you really just post that?

Are you for real or just a troll? Seriously? No, seriously???

Part of the false mormon theology is that you following the commandments earns you a part in the mormon formula for consideration towards salvation. THAT'S WORKS.

How is it not works????????????????????????

 

[CrowCross]

Labeling one a believer or non believer does nothing to annul the connection between "worketh righteousness" and being "accepted with him".

Acts 10:35---King James Version
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Still pushing works based salvation?

I do find it quite funny how the mormons claim there is no works required by them in their salvation formula...then post verses such as Acts above.

Eph 2:8-9 KJV
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

What part of "not by works" don't you get?

 

[CrowCross]

Although the term "Trinity" or "Hypostatic Union" isn't found in the Biblical text--the term "faith alone" is:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Two simple points....

1) The context of James 2:24 is not arguing against the doctrine of salvation by faith alone.

2) The Bible does not need to contain the precise phrase “faith alone” in order to clearly teach salvation by faith alone. Much like it doesn't need the terms "Trinity" or "Hypostatic Union" to teach either.

One of the usages of the word according to Strongs definition is
"2. τινα, to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered"

James 2:24 could read just as easily read....24 You see that a person shows evidence by works and not by faith alone.

James 2:24 does not argue against salvation by faith alone. Rather, it argues against a salvation that is alone, a salvation devoid of good works and obedience to God’s Word.

Part 2:
Any verse that ascribes salvation to faith/belief, with no other requirement mentioned, is a declaration that salvation is by faith alone.
John 3:16 declares that salvation is given to “whoever believes in Him.”
Acts 16:31 proclaims, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.”
Ephesians 2:8 says, “For by grace you have been saved through faith.”
Romans 3:28 tells us "man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."
Romans 4:5 mentions "the one who does not work, but believes in Him"
Romans 5:1 says "Therefore, since we have been justified through faith,"
Galatians 2:16 proclaims "we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ"
Galations 3:24 says "Law has become our trainer unto Christ, so that we might be justified by faith."
Ephesians 1:13 says "when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit"
Philippians 3:9 says "not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ,"

So, dberrie2020...you presented one verse....ONE VERSE...and I presented ten that proclaim faith alone...no works.
I also showed you how you have been using the word "justified" incorrectly in James 2:24.

Ball is in your court to try to defend your position once again....

GQ is a reference for this post.

Don't forget dberrie2020....you can be freed from the slavery of mormons works to obtain their false salvation.

 

[LifeIn]

You are seemingly unaware of the historical context of Luther's phrase "monster of uncertainty."

That is true. I did not get the reference. I sometimes use obscure movie references as comments with about the same degree of success. So, now that the context has been cleared up, would you care to explain how that specific reference applies to my posting to which you applied it? The things that I said were uncertain were not the things that the Luther context applies to, are they?

 

[BJ Bear]

Perhaps the real dispute is over whether someone who is not saved can do good works, or whether someone who is saved can fail to do good works.

It could be, but that would require a denial of the Scriptural witness of the person and work of Christ for all men. It would require Christ, the Savior, not saving (man being the passive object in that salvation) and not in the manner in which He clearly says He saves (the word alone, and the word with the sacraments of Holy Baptism, Holy Communion, and Holy Absolution) according to the Scriptures.

These questions can be considered independently of the question of the "cause of salvation".

They can't be rightfully considered apart from Christ who is our salvation.

So just because someone thinks an unsaved person can do good works, that does not mean those good works can bring about salvation. But even that question hinges on who is saved and who is not, and when they become saved.

I think it would be helpful if people defined the sense in which they mean, "good works." If an unbeliever feeds the hungry then that can be considered a good work in that the hungry are fed. But it isn't a good work before God in the sense that it wasn't done with a true heart, a heart freed from sin, death, and the devil in order to serve others through Christ our Lord God and Savior.

The point in one's life at which one finds out for sure if they are saved is after death. Before that, one can hope they are saved, or think they are saved, but how would they know for sure?

That would depend on whether their faith is in Christ or in something else, for example, themselves and their own self manufactured faith, or a different object or content of faith.

To the person with faith in the true Christ rather than something else you have posed two categorically false assertions followed by a question which follows the pattern of the serpent who said, "Did God really say?"

God knows for sure. That much is certain.

Yes, that is true, but He has given men sure knowledge in this regard through the person and work of Christ for all men.

But what living human can be sure of something that only God knows?

That is a question based on a false premise.

By raising these questions I am not staking out a position on the main question of the roll of works - only pointing out the philosophical difficulties in even discussing them.

The difficulties, for example, uncertainty with regard to salvation, created by placing human reason above Scripture are inescapable. Reason is a great tool for the things beneath us, the things we are to have dominion over, but it was never intended to have dominion or rule over what is above us, for example God's word. In that case reason is only a servant in our attentive listening or obedience to the revelation of Christ for you.

 

[e v e 21]

To be absent from the body is to be present with Christ.
Is this more irrational certainty?
If so, then faith itself is irrational certainty, to which I would agree. Nothing about faith passes the rational test or we would all unbelieve and become atheist or agnostic. Miracles, life after death, etc. affront reasonableness apart from the irrational certainty of faith. But these things do not advocate that we abandon faith for reasoned or rational certainty. What of Abraham and Isaac and the sacrifice God would provide? Yet this is yet another example of irrational certainty epitomizing the possession of the freely given gift of faith.

Peace ?

yes that first line could be true... because this body is an abomination resulting from the fall...

but remember even satanic spirits are absent from the body

the prioritizing of reason is a greek development...which polluted christianity

 

[LifeIn]

It could be, but that would require a denial of the Scriptural witness of the person and work of Christ for all men. It would require Christ, the Savior, not saving (man being the passive object in that salvation) and not in the manner in which He clearly says He saves (the word alone, and the word with the sacraments of Holy Baptism, Holy Communion, and Holy Absolution) according to the Scriptures.

This is best addressed together with the issue of "what are good works" that you raised below.

They can't be rightfully considered apart from Christ who is our salvation.

The two questions can be considered independently in the sense that they are independent of the fact that Christ is our salvation. But this too can only be answered in the context of what you raised next....

I think it would be helpful if people defined the sense in which they mean, "good works." If an unbeliever feeds the hungry then that can be considered a good work in that the hungry are fed. But it isn't a good work before God in the sense that it wasn't done with a true heart, a heart freed from sin, death, and the devil in order to serve others through Christ our Lord God and Savior.

You have hit the nail on the head here. This is indeed the crux of the issue of good works. As you said, a work can be considered good in terms of what is accomplished. Furthermore, such works can be done for good reasons or for selfish reasons. This issue is dealt with nicely in the 2019 Christmas movie, "Klaus", where a spoiled son of a postmaster inadvertently brings peace and joy to the feuding town of Smeerensburg, but only for selfish reasons. (I highly recommend the movie!) To use your terms, it was not done with a true heart freed from sin, death, and the devil. But that is a very specific definition of "good works". If you use that definition, then your conclusions about the relationship with salvation is almost a tautology. But what is the use of stating a tautology?

I will just state that under the common definition of "good", some people who are "bad" sometimes do good things. Sometimes they even do them sincerely and altruistically. Those act do not make up for the bad things they do, and they certainly don't bring salvation. But I think there is still a good reason to call those acts "good" based on the effect and the sincerity with which they are done.

That would depend on whether their faith is in Christ or in something else, for example, themselves and their own self manufactured faith, or a different object or content of faith.

Again, this is part of your tautology, and therefore does not really state anything consequential.

To the person with faith in the true Christ rather than something else you have posed two categorically false assertions followed by a question which follows the pattern of the serpent who said, "Did God really say?"

It is not questioning anything God said.

Yes, that is true, but He has given men sure knowledge in this regard through the person and work of Christ for all men.

The "sure knowledge" that God has given is in terms of general statements in the form of "if A is true then B is true". He has not given anyone sure knowledge of their own salvation. People can deduce that they individually are saved by assuming they qualify for the general statements from God. But people's deductions can be flawed. It is because of Man's weakness in making sure deductions that the conclusions so reached are not as certain as the statements given by God.

The difficulties, for example, uncertainty with regard to salvation, created by placing human reason above Scripture are inescapable.

That is only true when one places his own reason above Scripture. When that happens it is usually because of is flawed reasoning. But God is rational. Reason that comes from God does not contradict scripture. Just as you narrowly defined "good works" above, I am narrowly defining "reason" so as to exclude a man's faulty reason and only regarding "true" reason.

 

[BJ Bear]

the prioritizing of reason is a greek development...which polluted christianity

Agreed, the evil one is a trickster. Novelty went from bring a heresy to accepted to tradition.

 

[dberrie2020]

dberrie2020 said: I'm not sure how you are relating God extending His salvational grace to them which keep His commandments --as being saved by works?

Are you for real or just a troll? Seriously? No, seriously???

Part of the false mormon theology is that you following the commandments earns you a part in the mormon formula for consideration towards salvation. THAT'S WORKS.

How is it not works????????????????????????

So--are you claiming this is an example of one earning life by works?

Revelation 22:14---King James Version
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Again--how are you relating God extending His salvational grace to them which keep His commandments--as being saved by works? If anyone has the right to the tree of life---that comes by God's grace--which is extended to them which obey Him.

Your accusation comes through the portals of self-imposed definition, whenever scriptures are posted which violate faith alone theology. It has nothing to do with the scriptural testimony, IMO.

No one here has claimed one is saved by works--that is just the knee-jerk reaction the faith alone adherents have when they find the scriptures violate their theology.

 

[dberrie2020]

dberrie said---Labeling one a believer or non believer does nothing to annul the connection between "worketh righteousness" and being "accepted with him".

Acts 10:35---King James Version
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Still pushing works based salvation?

If you are going to conclude that-- when scriptures are posted which defy faith alone theology--then your argument is with the scriptures--not me.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

 

[dberrie2020]

Two simple points....

1) The context of James 2:24 is not arguing against the doctrine of salvation by faith alone.

Yes it is--as to faith alone theology.

2) The Bible does not need to contain the precise phrase “faith alone” in order to clearly teach salvation by faith alone.

But the Biblical NT does use the "precise phrase"-- "faith alone"--and it isn't friendly to faith alone theology:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

James 2:24 does not argue against salvation by faith alone. Rather, it argues against a salvation that is alone, a salvation devoid of good works and obedience to God’s Word.

LOL!!! When you reveal to us what works you add to faith alone in obtaining eternal life, so it won't be "alone"--will be the day you cease to believe in faith alone theology. That is just a ploy the faith alone adherents try to employ to cover the fact they believe in obtaining eternal life without the first act of obedience to Jesus Christ.

 

[CrowCross]

No one here has claimed one is saved by works--that is just the knee-jerk reaction the faith alone adherents have when they find the scriptures violate their theology.

Everyone here who is a mormon has claimed that works is part of the salvation formula. Even you.... EDITED--RULE 12 VIOLATION

 

[CrowCross]

If you are going to conclude that-- when scriptures are posted which defy faith alone theology--then your argument is with the scriptures--not me.

Two simple points....

1) The context of James 2:24 is not arguing against the doctrine of salvation by faith alone.

2) The Bible does not need to contain the precise phrase “faith alone” in order to clearly teach salvation by faith alone. Much like it doesn't need the terms "Trinity" or "Hypostatic Union" to teach either.

One of the usages of the word according to Strongs definition is
"2. τινα, to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered"

James 2:24 could read just as easily read....24 You see that a person shows evidence by works and not by faith alone.

James 2:24 does not argue against salvation by faith alone. Rather, it argues against a salvation that is alone, a salvation devoid of good works and obedience to God’s Word.

Part 2:
Any verse that ascribes salvation to faith/belief, with no other requirement mentioned, is a declaration that salvation is by faith alone.
John 3:16 declares that salvation is given to “whoever believes in Him.”
Acts 16:31 proclaims, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.”
Ephesians 2:8 says, “For by grace you have been saved through faith.”
Romans 3:28 tells us "man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."
Romans 4:5 mentions "the one who does not work, but believes in Him"
Romans 5:1 says "Therefore, since we have been justified through faith,"
Galatians 2:16 proclaims "we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ"
Galations 3:24 says "Law has become our trainer unto Christ, so that we might be justified by faith."
Ephesians 1:13 says "when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit"
Philippians 3:9 says "not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ,"

So, dberrie2020...you presented one verse....ONE VERSE...and I presented ten that proclaim faith alone...no works.
I also showed you how you have been using the word "justified" incorrectly in James 2:24.

Ball is in your court to try to defend your position once again....

GQ is a reference for this post.

Don't forget dberrie2020....you can be freed from the slavery of mormons works to obtain their false salvation.