Thought Experiment

[Whatsisface]

No, it simply presents why you without any logical reason call it a fallacy of thinking.

It's an ad hominem because you attack me rather than deal with the issues.

 

[CrowCross]

It's an ad hominem because you attack me rather than deal with the issues.

I've dealt with the issue....I see the truth....You, eh. Different story.

 

[Whatsisface]

I've dealt with the issue....I see the truth....You, eh. Different story.

You have not shown what you see is the truth.

 

[CrowCross]

You have not shown what you see is the truth.

There is nothing that could show you there is a God. Nothing.

You will always have an excuse....and none of them will work at the White Throne.

 

[Whatsisface]

There is nothing that could show you there is a God. Nothing.

Do you so lack imagination? Yes there is. If you prayed to God to stop all disease and war overnight and it then happened, something we know won't happen naturally, you would really have my attention.

 

[CrowCross]

Do you so lack imagination? Yes there is. If you prayed to God to stop all disease and war overnight and it then happened, something we know won't happen naturally, you would really have my attention.

If that happened you'd say the Grays came and delivered some sort of highly sophisticated cure all to the world.

 

[Whatsisface]

If that happened you'd say the Grays came and delivered some sort of highly sophisticated cure all to the world.

No I wouldn't, I don't believe they exist either. And wars stopping?

You scepticism is an excuse not to try, because you deep down know what the result of your prayer would be.

 

[El Cid]

We don't know this.

Not for certain but all the evidence points to it.

 

[Whatsisface]

Not for certain but all the evidence points to it.

The history of Science is full of people who hastily jumped to conclusions only to be found wrong.

 

[El Cid]

Personhood is necessary because we know that persons only come from other persons,

We also know that humans only come from other humans.

Yes, but we know that humans cannot transcend the physical universe because they are physical but personhood is non physical so the cause of persons in the universe must be a non-physical person, like God.

Because good exists in the universe and goodness can only come from the good. And God is the good.

Good doesn't exist in the universe like gravity. The idea of goodness is like logic, it is a necessary concept that will occur to sentient creatures. If you help someone, you've done good, and helping someone doesn't require a God to exist

Both goodness and logic exist in the universe. And both existed long before sentient creatures did. A T. rex and a Triceratops cannot exist in the same space at the same time in the same relationship, that would be a violation of the law of non-contradiction. This was true long before humans existed. And goodness existed in creation when God called the universe good. Also, later He revealed what the good is when He created us with a moral conscience to recognize good and then after our conscience became damaged, He provided His universal moral law in writing to recognize what is good.

 

[Whatsisface]

Yes, but we know that humans cannot transcend the physical universe because they are physical but personhood is non physical so the cause of persons in the universe must be a non-physical person, like God.

Personhood is dependant on the physical.

Both goodness and logic exist in the universe. And both existed long before sentient creatures did. A T. rex and a Triceratops cannot exist in the same space at the same time in the same relationship, that would be a violation of the law of non-contradiction. This was true long before humans existed. And goodness existed in creation when God called the universe good. Also, later He revealed what the good is when He created us with a moral conscience to recognize good and then after our conscience became damaged, He provided His universal moral law in writing to recognize what is good.

This is nothing but assertion.

 

[Eightcrackers]

but personhood is non physical

It is a property that, as far as science can tell, arises from and is constrained by the physical.

 

[El Cid]

Personhood is necessary because we know that persons only come from other persons,

Your god being a person, where did he come from?

He is not an effect so does not need a cause.

You violate your own precept as soon as you have made use of it.

Nope no violation. Something including persons can logically be a cause but not an effect.

Also, personal creators always have a "fingerprint", that identifies them specifically as the creator. And it appears that that fingerprint is diversity within a unity.

You've said this before, but it is utterly meaningless.

How is meaningless? It is not that complicated.

You claimed, if I recall correctly, that a unitarian god could not create a universe with, for example, more than one kind of elementary particle; nowhere did you prove it, or even attempt to do so.

No, I said it would be unlikely from what we know about artistic creators.

Because good exists in the universe and goodness can only come from the good. And God is the good.

"Evil exists in the universe and evilness can only come from the evil. And God is the evil."

But you claim there no such thing as real objective evil. So you are contradicting yourself.

 

[El Cid]

You didn't demonstrate, you asserted.

No, I explained why it was very unlikely.

 

[El Cid]

The history of Science is full of people who hastily jumped to conclusions only to be found wrong.

There are also those who failed to go where the evidence led and ended in the dustbin of history.

 

[Eightcrackers]

He is not an effect so does not need a cause.

When you say "personhood must come from personhood", you are stipulating that personhood is an effect.

Nope no violation. Something including persons can logically be a cause but not an effect.

Not if personhood comes from personhood.

No, I said it would be unlikely from what we know about artistic creators.

Do you know of any unitarian artistic creators?
No. So you have absolutely no data on which to base ^this.

None.

But you claim there no such thing as real objective evil. So you are contradicting yourself.

I am arguing from within your paradigm - you believe that there is good and evil, yet you attribute only the good to your god, and not the evil.

This is cherry-picking.

 

[El Cid]

Yes, but we know that humans cannot transcend the physical universe because they are physical but personhood is non physical so the cause of persons in the universe must be a non-physical person, like God.

Personhood is dependant on the physical.

There is evidence it is not, besides NDEs, there is the maintenance of identity thru time. For example, if you replace almost every part of a table it is no longer the same table. But humans lose almost all their cells every 7 years but you are still you.

Both goodness and logic exist in the universe. And both existed long before sentient creatures did. A T. rex and a Triceratops cannot exist in the same space at the same time in the same relationship, that would be a violation of the law of non-contradiction. This was true long before humans existed. And goodness existed in creation when God called the universe good. Also, later He revealed what the good is when He created us with a moral conscience to recognize good and then after our conscience became damaged, He provided His universal moral law in writing to recognize what is good.

This is nothing but assertion.

So you believe that a T. rex and a Triceratops can occupy the same space at the same time and in the same relationship and not violate the law of noncontradiction? And the evidence for the existence of good is the same evidence for the Christian God.

 

[Eightcrackers]

But humans lose almost all their cells every 7 years but you are still you.

Not the brain cells.

And the brain cells are repsonsible for one's sense of self... coincidence?

 

[Whatsisface]

There is evidence it is not, besides NDEs, there is the maintenance of identity thru time. For example, if you replace almost every part of a table it is no longer the same table. But humans lose almost all their cells every 7 years but you are still you.

As Eightcrakers has said, brain cells do not get replaced as you say and it's our brains that are largely responsible for who we are along with various hormones and chemicals in our bodies. For example, the amount of testosterone a male has, a physical thing, affects how aggressively he behaves.

So you believe that a T. rex and a Triceratops can occupy the same space at the same time and in the same relationship and not violate the law of noncontradiction?

No, and that's not an example of the law of non contradiction.

And the evidence for the existence of good is the same evidence for the Christian God.

This is what you said earlier,

And goodness existed in creation when God called the universe good.

This is the assertion. This is what you are arguing for, but you use it as part of your argument which is circular reasoning or begging the question.

 

[El Cid]

It is a property that, as far as science can tell, arises from and is constrained by the physical.

Not necessarily, see post 1597.