Meaning of John 6:43-44

Yes, but logical principles have not been confirmed by science, they are assumptions that scientists use to conduct science. Therefore, that proves you believe in something not based on science.
So what? That doesn't mean you can believe in anything that's not based in science, because adopting the principles of logic are necessary to even have a conversation. They are the bare minimum. Just assuming all sorts of things would violate Occam's razor, which is a logical principle.
 
Because science cannot measure/ explain subjective supernatural experiences.
Of course science can. There have been many excellent, well-conducted scientific studies that tried to find the supernatural, like ESP, and ghosts, clarivoyance, etc. Just because science hasn't found it yet doesn't mean it's beyond science, it just means that it's not there (as far as we know, but that could change).


I don't recall you responding to Hutchinson's assertion that there are other things that science cannot explain, like; justice.
Exactly what do you think can't be explained about justice by science?

How can you use science to measure abstract concepts?
I don't even know what it means to measure an abstract concept. To what purpose are we measuring abstract concepts? Perhaps what you're bringing up is merely a question of logic instead of empirical examination (logic is part of science). Given a definition of justice, we can make a rough determination, using logic, whether a certain situation is more or less just. Even if there are difficult, borderline cases, that doesn't invalidate the entire enterprise. Sam Harris makes the point that health is a similar type of concept: to determine whether something will be healthy in some particular circumstance may be difficult to determine, or beyond us currently, but that doesn't invalidate the concept of health and our approach to it.

I know you started to elaborate on how one could decide if a certain Jazz performer was a genius (I really can't remember the exact word used to describe his skills.). I would disagree with you in this respect also. To me it would be a subjective determination. It can't be determined as specifically as the natural science in which Hutchinson works.
I don't deny the existence of subjectivity. No one can ever know what my experience of the color blue is, and that seems to be beyond science. Assuming it is beyond science (even though it may not stay that way forever, but let's assuming for now), that is an area that is beyond science, but it's also beyond being an objective statement about the real world. And that's the difference with claiming that God is objectively real based on an internal, subjective experience. One doesn't need to claim that my experience of the color blue is something objectively true in the real world for me to still claim that experience as an internal, subjective experience. But you cross the line when you say your internal, subjective experience of God means that God is objectively true in the real world.

How does Occam's razor help in these matter? As a scientism advocate don't you use Occam's razor to rule out the supernatural?
See above about science studying the supernatural.

Allow me to reiterate my position on scientism. There is no other process or method used to reliably find out things about the real, objective world that science doesn't use. So, if we determine something largely on logical grounds, that may not be science strictly speaking, but it's nothing that is beyond science.
 
"Science can't explain supernatural experiences"?

How do you know that these experiences are supernatural?
It only presupposes the possibility of the supernatural, whereas Occam's razor is used by an atheist to rule out from the get go a supernatural explanation.
 
So what? That doesn't mean you can believe in anything that's not based in science, because adopting the principles of logic are necessary to even have a conversation. They are the bare minimum. Just assuming all sorts of things would violate Occam's razor, which is a logical principle.
If it is a logical principle it would have to apply to every situation like the law of identity, law of non-contradiction, and law of the excluded middle. I don't think the OR does that.
 
If it is a logical principle it would have to apply to every situation like the law of identity, law of non-contradiction, and law of the excluded middle. I don't think the OR does that.
It is a point of logic, but in my view not an absolute one as the three Laws you mention. It's more of a general guide.
 
If it is a logical principle it would have to apply to every situation like the law of identity, law of non-contradiction, and law of the excluded middle. I don't think the OR does that.
Maybe it's not a logical principle like the 3 biggies, whether it is or not is not crucial, but it is logical to apply Occam's razor to claims. Otherwise, you'd be left having to accept claims with no limit to unnecessary elements, some of which could be contradictory.
 
"This experience was supernatural" does not presuppose the mere possibility of the supernatural.
The only supernatural thing that you would believe would have to be what you experience yourself.
You're skeptical of the bible and of other person's experiences. The problem with that is that when you do have a supernatural experience, you will attempt to dismiss it and explain it away. You will miss the work of God drawing you to himself with your "wisdom".
 
The only supernatural thing that you would believe would have to be what you experience yourself.
There is no way to be sure that one's assessment of the experience as supernatural, is correct.
People attributed things to the supernatural a lot more in the past... and a lot of those things have been explained.
The problem with that is that when you do have a supernatural experience, you will attempt to dismiss it and explain it away. You will miss the work of God drawing you to himself with your "wisdom".
Your god would know what kind of experience to give me that I would not - could not - dismiss.
You think he did it for you, don't you?
 
Here is the verse:

“Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered.
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me
draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

When it says "them", who is it referring to?

Believers in the truth and reality of God.
 
How can you know that a thing will never be explained naturalistically?

There is a difference between "no explanation" and "no current explanation", isn't there?
I have an explanation that I am satisfied with but you are not. I don't believe a natural reason can explain it because natural explanations do not include God.

Ian Hutchinson spoke about subjective experiences of the divine in his debate with Gus along with other disciplines that don't lend themselves to scientific scrutiny. Those types of experiences cannot be measured by the scientific method that is used in the natural sciences but Gus thinks differently.That's where Gus and Ian had their disagreement.
 
What exactly do you mean?
You have said that science cannot explain supernatural experiences. When asked how do you know they are supernatural experiences, you have said there is no other explanation for them.

My point is that that's quite a claim, but you haven't given reason and/or evidence to show it's true. I have never seen on this forum or elsewhere such reason and evidence.
 
I have an explanation that I am satisfied with but you are not. I don't believe a natural reason can explain it because natural explanations do not include God.
But what if there is an explanation that does not require a god, that you just don't know about yet?

On what grounds do you dismiss this possibility?
 
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