Going to Hell in a nutshell

[Caroljeen]

It does when salvation requires it.

Making salvation contingent on recognition, and then failing/refusing to get everybody to recognize him, is either incompetent or immoral.

You're the one who is making it hard and difficult. It's not that God is incompetent or immoral. The only stipulation that I know of in order to "recognize" God is that you have to advance toward him. It wasn't like that between man and God before the fall. God would meet with Adam and Eve in the garden and talk with them.

Maybe try looking at it like this: Someone is giving you something. Holding out his hand to give you something and instead of taking it, you look at it, analyze it, rationalize it, scrutinize it, and resist his gentle request for you to take it. It's a gift. It's free. He is right in front of you and you refuse the quiet voice of love. Why? Because he didn't package it for you the way you wanted it?

The way to find God is to seek after him. He calls us to come to him. If you really desire to find out if God is there, you have to reach out to him even though you do not believe that he exists.

I don't know why God calls us to seek after him...even to the point of fumbling around as we seek because we can't see him. Paul says that we will find God when we search for him.

Matthew 11: 28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and are carrying heavy burdens, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

Acts 17:...he made all peoples to inhabit the whole earth, and he allotted the times of their existence and the boundaries of the places where they would live, 27 so that they would search for God and perhaps fumble about for him and find him—though indeed he is not far from each one of us. 28 For ‘In him we live and move and have our being’;

https://reknew.org/2021/08/why-does-god-stay-hidden-podcast/

 

[Caroljeen]

Yes, and in the next one.

We will sin the the next life?

 

[5wize]

You're the one who is making it hard and difficult. It's not that God is incompetent or immoral. The only stipulation that I know of in order to "recognize" God is that you have to advance toward him. It wasn't like that between man and God before the fall. God would meet with Adam and Eve in the garden and talk with them.

Maybe try looking at it like this: Someone is giving you something. Holding out his hand to give you something and instead of taking it, you look at it, analyze it, rationalize it, scrutinize it, and resist his gentle request for you to take it. It's a gift. It's free. He is right in front of you and you refuse the quiet voice of love. Why? Because he didn't package it for you the way you wanted it?

The way to find God is to seek after him. He calls us to come to him. If you really desire to find out if God is there, you have to reach out to him even though you do not believe that he exists.

I don't know why God calls us to seek after him...even to the point of fumbling around as we seek because we can't see him. Paul says that we will find God when we search for him.

Matthew 11: 28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and are carrying heavy burdens, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

Acts 17:...he made all peoples to inhabit the whole earth, and he allotted the times of their existence and the boundaries of the places where they would live, 27 so that they would search for God and perhaps fumble about for him and find him—though indeed he is not far from each one of us. 28 For ‘In him we live and move and have our being’;

https://reknew.org/2021/08/why-does-god-stay-hidden-podcast/

Caroljeen... We experience this world just like you do externally. We don’t hear the call. We don’t see what or who to seek or move to. We don’t see anybody or anything holding their hand out. We don’t hear the quiet voice. We could just pretend and start moving towards what you describe, but we can do that in the context of any religion and make it our internal reality. They will all resonate to their own degree because they are all human religions created to reflect positive human truths. As a result, we decided to just move towards the positive human truths. Accept realities extended hand... listen to humanity’s voice.

 

[Caroljeen]

Funny, too, how Jimmy lumps love/help/compassion towards our fellow man IN WITH obedience to / love of God when our treatment of one another has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with our salvation

It's almost as if he recognizes the depravity of basing salvation upon the stoking of God's ego and seeks to mitigate it by pretending that God takes into consideration our moral character...

This could only make sense to you.

 

[Caroljeen]

Caroljeen... We experience this world just like you do externally. We don’t hear the call. We don’t see what or who to seek or move to. We don’t see anybody or anything holding their hand out. We don’t hear the quiet voice. We could just pretend and start moving towards what you describe, but we can do that for any religion and make it an internal reality.

Or you might find an external reality that is welcoming you into his kingdom. I did.

 

[5wize]

Or you might find an external reality that is welcoming you into his kingdom. I did.

External realities can be empirically pointed to, like a tree in a field. Everybody can share and see it, experience it, without faith or a script such as the Bible to keep it a focus of our lives like Christianity requires. I can move towards Islam’s call and make it my internal reality and tell you that I found an external reality waiting for me in it (many obviously have)... Would you believe me.?... would I be able to convince you to move to my claimed external reality like you are pointing me to yours?

 

[stiggy wiggy]

We will sin the the next life?

We will be judged for our sins in the next life.

 

[Caroljeen]

External realities can be empirically pointed to, like a tree in a field. Everybody can share and see it, experience it, without faith or a script such as the Bible to keep it a focus of our lives like Christianity requires. I can move towards Islam’s call and make it my internal reality and tell you that I found an external reality waiting for me in it (many obviously have)... Would you believe me.?... would I be able to convince you to move to my claimed external reality like you are pointing me to yours?

An external reality cannot be subjective? What about Paul's external reality of seeing Jesus on the Damascus road? He left the scene blind and so shaken that he could not eat for 3 days. Paul's traveling companions knew something had happened although they did not see Jesus.

Why do you get to set the rules?

 

[5wize]

An external reality cannot be subjective? What about Paul's external reality of seeing Jesus on the Damascus road? He left the scene blind and so shaken that he could not eat for 3 days. Paul's traveling companions knew something had happened although they did not see Jesus.

I believe Paul had an internal experience. They can lead to physical manifestations... the placebo effect. I don’t believe in any of the external testimonies. They conflict and lead me to believe they were fabricated to claim witness to an external experience. Yes... I think there is a lie in the Bible.

Why do you get to set the rules?

The rules of subjectivity and objectivity and how they are verified are not my rules.

But can you answer - I can move towards Islam’s call and make it my internal reality and tell you that I found an external reality waiting for me in it (many obviously have)... Would you believe me.?... would I be able to convince you to move to my claimed external reality like you are pointing me to yours?

 

[stiggy wiggy]

I believe Paul had an internal experience.

Here's an internal experience. I'm normally distrustful of near death experiences, and I know the guy COULD be deceived, but I don't think he's lying:

 

[5wize]

Here's an internal experience. I'm normally distrustful of near death experiences, and I know the guy COULD be deceived, but I don't think he's lying:

If this is all it takes for belief, why aren’t these experiences common enough so we can all experience the truth and reality of God? I don’t see you complaining that this man’s free will was taken from him as a result of this experience making him a robot no longer requiring choice or faith but imparting an inner experience many of us are not so lucky to have.

John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Yes, faith over proof makes one blessed according to the Bible, but viable proof was never an issue for God in the cases where necessary... like us atheist doubting Thomases.

 

[stiggy wiggy]

If this is all it takes for belief, why aren’t these experiences common enough so we can all experience the truth and reality of God?

Uh, because people flat-lining and living to tell about it are not that common?

I don’t see you complaining that this man’s free will was taken from him as a result of this experience ........

Uh, because I don't think it was?

John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Yes, faith over proof makes one blessed according to the Bible, but viable proof was never an issue for God in the cases where necessary... like us atheist doubting Thomases.

Yeah? And .......?

 

[Eightcrackers]

The only stipulation that I know of in order to "recognize" God is that you have to advance toward him.

And in order to do this, one must first recognize that he exists.

You make the decision to advance towards a thing that you don't believe is there.

Maybe try looking at it like this: Someone is giving you something. Holding out his hand to give you something and instead of taking it, you look at it, analyze it, rationalize it, scrutinize it, and resist his gentle request for you to take it. It's a gift. It's free. He is right in front of you and you refuse the quiet voice of love. Why? Because he didn't package it for you the way you wanted it?

A bad analogy - I do not stipulate to the assumption that there is a "someone", or a "him".
"Why are you resisting my god's offer?" is the oldest apologetic trick in the book.

The way to find God is to seek after him.

One must first believe he's there.
Before I owned a car, I never sought after my car keys.

If you really desire to find out if God is there, you have to reach out to him even though you do not believe that he exists.

Cart before the horse, and opens the door for confirmation bias.

I don't know why your god insists on "being found", when he can just make his presence known to all.

I don't know why God calls us to seek after him

^That makes two of us.

Paul says that we will find God when we search for him.

If "find" were put in inverted commas, I would agree completely.
Confirmation bias.

 

[The Pixie]

...
Maybe try looking at it like this: Someone is giving you something. Holding out his hand to give you something and instead of taking it, you look at it, analyze it, rationalize it, scrutinize it, and resist his gentle request for you to take it. It's a gift. It's free. He is right in front of you and you refuse the quiet voice of love. Why? Because he didn't package it for you the way you wanted it?
...

So if you got an email from a Nigerian Prince....

 

[Whatsisface]

An external reality cannot be subjective? What about Paul's external reality of seeing Jesus on the Damascus road? He left the scene blind and so shaken that he could not eat for 3 days. Paul's traveling companions knew something had happened although they did not see Jesus.

Why do you get to set the rules?

This very much says that what happened to Paul didn't happen externally to him, or everyone else would have seen what Paul saw.

 

[Eightcrackers]

What about Paul's external reality of seeing Jesus on the Damascus road? He left the scene blind and so shaken that he could not eat for 3 days. Paul's traveling companions knew something had happened although they did not see Jesus.

The "things that happened" (assuming they did happen) would be the external reality, not Jesus' being the cause of them.

"My grandfather's spirit told me the move that won me the game."

Winning the game? External.
The grandfather's spirit relating the winning move? Not external.

 

[5wize]

Uh, because people flat-lining and living to tell about it are not that common?



Uh, because I don't think it was?



Yeah? And .......?

Let me regroup and approach this at another angle. I may not be remembering correctly what I thought one of your core sentiments were concerning why God does not reveal himself beyond a doubt, to whatever level of doubt exists in a person (to a reasonable degree of course - some may indeed be totally reprobate. Let's remove them from the equation). I think I remember your usual response to that being something along the lines of “What do you wan’t - skywriting?"

So what is your true sentiment about why God does not impart inspirational experiences like the one above - however not requiring near death? Or experiences like Thomas - a doubter like me - was granted, a doubt so easily understood, overcome, and graciously supplied by the lord to secure the belief in Him God desires?

 

[Eightcrackers]

I think I remember your usual response to that being something along the lines of “What do you wan’t - skywriting?"

To which, my response would be "why not"?

It's not as though Yahweh hasn't done it before - it was nothing but pillars of cloud and fire, at one stage!

(But then, cessationism is a thing...)

 

[5wize]

To which, my response would be "why not"?

It's not as though Yahweh hasn't done it before - it was nothing but pillars of cloud and fire, at one stage!

(But then, cessationism is a thing...)

Right... Cessationism is the excuse as to why I don't get my revelation.... or it could have been my reprobate mind.... but cessationism was of course suspended for the guy in the video, and a reprobate mind was overcome in the example of Stiggy himself.

 

[Manfred]

Being convinced of somebody's existence does not constitute a violation of free will.

You want to be convinced against your will.

Have you ever been introduced to another person?
That introduction "forced" you to believe that the other party existed - was your free will violated?

Nope. You have been introduced to God through many witnesses, you not believing them does not violate your free will.
Being forced to believe against your will is of course a volition

Of course not.
Think before you type.

Still making excuses I see.
At least you will not be able to say you did not know, if in fact the Christians who have witnessed to you are correct. You would rather want God to change your mind for you...