brotherofJared
Well-known member
Try to keep up. If what you said is true, then it's not free. You just described a condition.
The free gift of God
- Thread starter dberrie2020
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brotherofJared
Well-known member
Yep. Salvation isn't free. Salvation has conditions. The free gift doesn't
The ones highlighted in red receive salvation and it is conditional, not free.
brotherofJared
Well-known member
Temple works have nothing to do with salvation amongst the living. The only hoops we have to jump through is to follow Christ.
Bonnie
Super Member
Yep, and exaltation is dependent upon what people do in this life, how obedient they are, whether or not they have done all of their temple works and ordinances, observed the WoW, worn their temple undergarments at all times....
None of this is remotely Biblical. I guess it just seems too....simple for Mormons to accept, the true way to eternal life: "for God so loved the world, that He gave His one and only Son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life....", "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is life eternal in Christ Jesus our Lord." " If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved."
And others. Yet, there is one on here who does NOT know what "gift" means, that it means something freely given WITHOUT COST.
- Merit in the context of works will Save US...
well, You can go back a read some of it here but we mostly discussed it at the old forum, Iam not sure if we can access it? And you have never explained away teachings like this one “Each of us has been sent to earth by our Heavenly Father to merit eternal life” – Robert D. Hales, “Personal...
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Sounds completely different than the true God of the Bible Who is holy and perfect and always has been God. "God is NOT a man, that He should lie...."
Another great mess in Mormondom....
What a difference from the one true God of the Bible Who invented science and math and Who is the personification of love!
Oh, I believe you, Markk!
Hmmmm.....not really. But I'll bet people who have Mormon missionaries come to their doors and who get talked into joining the LDS are not taught 1/10 of what the LDS teaches, about how God was first a man who had to learn how to become a God; that Jesus and Satan are actual brothers in the supposed pre-mortal existence...that men can become gods by doing all of those temple works, the WoW, etc....that polygamy is an everlasting....what is the word?...covenant? That will be practiced in the CK for those men who are exalted go godhood, correct? I asked this of Janice and she could not answer, either--if a man dies having only been married to one woman...where are those other women he is supposed to have in exaltation going to come from?
One thing I have noticed in the LDS church is that, because their teachings are so convoluted, they don't seem to be able to follow them to their logical and rather...confusing conclusions. Like the question I just asked. And why is it, IF HF and HM have flesh and blood, why do they only produce spirit children? I think the LDS church teaches that the HS can only be in one place at a time? If so, then how is it people all over the world in diffferent place can receive the gift of the HS at the same time?
Then there is that reallllll mish-mash about Ps. 82, which Mormons insist proves that there are plural gods out there. And that they are real gods. But I have asked question after question to two Mormons on here about that chapter in the Psalms....but never got any answers. Like...IF real gods are being talked about here, then why are they being castigated by God? IF they are real gods, why are they judging unjustly? Not helping widows and orphans? Wouldn't that make them sinners? Wouldn't that make them demons?
And if these gods are supposed to be judging things on earth, how would people contact them? Where would they go to find them? IF real gods/deities are meant in these verses?
I don't know if the LDS church has an official teaching about this chapter, though I do know that one of the high-ranking Mormon theologians--Talmadge?--claims the "gods" here are human judges with god-like power over the people who rule and judge for God. That is as I have always understood this chapter. But these Mormons have said he is wrong.
Mormon doctrines just don't make much sense to me. So much doing and doing and doing and doing and doing and doing some more....when Jesus has already declared, "Done!"
dberrie2020
Super Member
So--please tell us if the condemnation due to the Fall came to all men here:
Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
dberrie2020
Super Member
Could you explain to us how that differs from the Biblical witness?
Hebrews 5:9---King James Version
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Bonnie
Super Member
- More about the Atonement
Taint so!!! is neither a convincing nor a compelling argument. Well, you haven't explained how, according to LDS doctrine, every person on this earth was explained in the pre-existence...the eternal law, and need for the atonement and the need for a savior. They were given a choice of two...
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post no. 106.
Iconoclast
Well-known member
I can keep up, however you lack some basic understanding evidently.
Iconoclast
Well-known member
Sure, no problem. Get a piece of paper and draw a big circle. Call that big circle all men born in Adam physically, who died spiritually in the fall.
Now draw a second circle inside that big circle, maybe 2/3 the size of the first. Write inside the second circle, all who are IN Christ, by being born again, spiritually. all men had a physical birth....not all are born again...CAN YOU SEE IT YET
Two groups all in Adam.....All In Christ
Richard7
Well-known member
They are not born again, we LDS would agree....how does that affect the free gift given to all men... you never addressed that scripture, why?
Richard7
Well-known member
Many will accept the Plan of Salvation, some won't... what Glory? Eternal Life!
They are one in Christ...naturally.
Only the believers will recognized the name... and will worship the Father and the Son...
Faith is the trust, all of Christ adopted sons and daughters.
All born to the earth, and Christ condescended unto life of flesh and bone... being likewise the same as us (physical body) except he was God and had power over death...
Hebrews 2, more context:
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. Try
triumph over satan and death...
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour (support) them that are tempted.
All men are subject to bondage, the opposite of predestination...
But everyone has the opportunity to embrace the gospel, not the chosen or elect as some preach, in embracing we become part of the House of Israel. The chosen linage through Abraham and down through Issac and Jacob we cam all, and I mean all be made adopted son and daughter of the seed of Abraham and Israel...
Richard7
Well-known member
You really did not answer the question, you preach only those who are saved can be resurrected, I asked where is that found in the scriptures.
Iconoclast
Well-known member
Read it slowly....two groups of All
1]Death upon all men ever born in Adam
2]Life to All men spiritually alive IN Christ
All men ever born physically died in Adam, All men born again are In Christ.
The unsaved do not have life. Read the whole passage rom5:12-21
Iconoclast
Well-known member
No where does it say we accept anything, it does say we are made accepted however, eph1:6. No one seeks God, he has to seek them out.
No one is ine in Christ naturally, the natural man cannot accept the things of God
You ignore the portions I bolded in red as they tell us who is in view. You desire to make up your own ideas, rather than what scripture declares
This passage does not include all mankind. The everyonre of vs.9 is described by those portions you ignore.
It is not speaking of all men
You totally ignore that it does not say the seed of Adam, but rather the seed of Abraham
no, your hatred of predestination keeps you in ignorance on this
This has never been true in History, and it is not true right now.many live and die in their sins
HERE you openly oppose the truth of God.
You have no grasp on Covenant truth.
dberrie2020
Super Member
There is no such term as "in Christ" found in Romans5:18.
And, if "all men" includes all men born in Adam's posterity, in the appearance of "all men" in the Fall--then what is your evidence that same application isn't meant to apply to the "all men" in the free gift?
Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
That has a contextual setting, IMO. There is nothing there distinguishing one set of applications of "all men"--- from the other application of "all men"--as to the numbers or universal usage.
And certainly not the parameters you apply to it.
"all men" are not "in Christ":
by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
That's a reference to "all men"--not all that are "in Christ"--which are few, if the testimony of the Savior can be trusted in Matthew7:14. I believe you are referring to the "few" men here, as to the "in Christ" reference?
Matthew 7:14---King James Version
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
There is an obvious difference between "few", which are in Christ-- and "all men". Few--all men. Significant difference.
dberrie2020
Super Member
Folks--this is a false claim--which has been reputed on numerous occasions.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches the free gift is just that--free--and involves absolvent from both physical and spiritual death--and termed The Redemption, IE--the Redemption of all men from the Fall.
Any claim the Resurrection is the only free gift found in the church--is a false claim.
dberrie2020
Super Member
There are some which claim the "all men" in Romans5:18 is only a reference to those who receive eternal life. Here are some additional scriptures which testify of all men:
Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
1 Timothy 2:4---King James Version (KJV)
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Hebrews 2:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
2 Corinthians 5:14-15---King James Version (KJV)
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
1 John 2:2--King James Version (KJV)
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Peter 3:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
1 Timothy 2:4---King James Version (KJV)
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Hebrews 2:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
2 Corinthians 5:14-15---King James Version (KJV)
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
1 John 2:2--King James Version (KJV)
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Peter 3:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
dberrie2020
Super Member
That's a false witness. Not just the resurrection, in LDS theology--but the absolvement of both physical and spiritual death--as it relates to the Fall.
Free gift to all men. All men now have the opportunity to inherit eternal life--as a free gift to all men.
So Bonnie--is the "all men" in Romans5:18 ---different than the "few" here?
Matthew 7:14---King James Version
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Would this be an example of "all kinds of hoops"?
Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Jesus Christ paid an enormous price for the gift. It's available to all now, following the Atonement--as a free gift to all men.
No--but that is a good example of a free gift.
And our children or grandchildren don't have to have faith in us to receive that free gift either, as we as parents buy it out of love.
Bonnie
Super Member
I did no such thing, Richard. Please show me where I wrote that. I am not required to show you in Scripture a straw man you set up that I never even wrote on here.
In your church, salvation is just resurrection from the dead into immortal bodies. That happens to everyone, regardless of their beliefs or how they lived their lives. But in your church, full salvation is eternal life--exaltation--to the CK after death and only comes to those who have jumped through all of the Mormon "hoops" like doing temple works and keeping a temple recommend until death. Where is THIS found in Scripture????
ALL people, saved and unsaved, will be resurrected into eternal bodies that will never see decay. But some will be resurrected to judgment--damnation--and others to eternal life in heaven with God and Christ Jesus.
It is YOU that did NOT answer MY question about giving gifts to your children/grandchildren. Kindly do so now.
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dberrie2020
Super Member
Another false witness. That just isn't true--as has been explained on numerous occasions in this very thread.
Or--IOW--eternal life comes to them which obey God?
Hebrews 5:9---King James Version
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Bonnie--I believe you need to accept something which I believe you are in denial about, IE--in your theology, it's a faith without works one obtains eternal life through. You go through the list of "temple works", "tithing", etc--but the truth is--your theological challenges don't start there--they begin here:
Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
IOW--you would just as unceremoniously chunk the Savior's connection between keeping the commandments and eternal life--as you would "temple works".
Any connection the scriptures make between works and obtaining eternal life is attacked as a false doctrine--in your theology.
Revelation 22:14---King James Version
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.