The free gift of God

[Bonnie]

You wrote just a few minutes ago...



So do you have to accept the atonement here, on this earth, according to LDS theology...you just wrote it is free? Can you deny the atonement here on this earth according to LDS theology?

I thought in the LDS church, salvation--resurrection to immortality--comes to everyone, and is a gift. But exaltation to Godhood is what they call "eternal life"--correct? And must be earned by obedience to laws and rules, etc. Correct?

 

[Markk]

As I have stated over and over--no acceptance or belief required to receive the free gift of the Atonement and Resurrection--where all of mankind was Redeemed from the Fall.

What is there about that you are not accepting? Why? As I stated--even those who qualify to be sons of perdition in mortality, or those who will never believe, etc--receive the free gift. All men. That means all. Free gift.

It is just hard for me to get you to be open and honest with your "theology..." you run away from LDS theology and teachings like it is the plague.

So for the record you just stated that the atonement does not need to be accepted...here on this earth. However, LDS theology teaches...

The Savior’s Atonement makes it possible for us to overcome spiritual death. Although all people will be resurrected, only those who accept the Atonement will be saved from spiritual death (see Articles of Faith 1:3).

We accept Christ’s Atonement by placing our faith in Him. Through this faith, we repent of our sins, are baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, and obey His commandments. We become faithful disciples of Jesus Christ. We are forgiven and cleansed from sin and prepared to return and live forever with our Heavenly Father.

Chapter 12: The Atonement

Chapter 12: The Atonement

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

The word free is used three times in the link, nothing about the gift being free, it reads you have to accept the atonement. The only thing you are guaranteed is the resurrection, which you accepted in the preexistence by choosing HF plan.

 

[Markk]

I thought in the LDS church, salvation--resurrection to immortality--comes to everyone, and is a gift. But exaltation to Godhood is what they call "eternal life"--correct? And must be earned by obedience to laws and rules, etc. Correct?

It is muddy at best...they use the term salvation in like 6 or 7 ways (elder Oaks). The two most common ones are universal and conditional. But the underlying reality is that as BRM stated, true salvation to the saint is exaltation.

Universal salvation is both forced on every person born on this earth, and yet it requires acceptance in the preexistence and here, for the atonement...because as I wrote true salvation is exaltation.

It is a muddy mess and I can argue it two or three different ways.

Eternal Laws are not really "rules"...but eternal truths. "Eternal" is the key here. This means they have always been, even before HF was exalted to godhood. He had to master or complete each eternal truth (Law) in order to become perfect and a God.

If math is a truth, he needs to know and understand every aspect of math, or science, or charity, love, compassion, justice, ...anything that exists and is a "truth", he needs to know and understand every bit of that truth, then and only then can it become his law and he a all knowing god.

LOL, I am not just making this stuff up, it was taught by...JFS, BRM, Talmage, Richards, Hunter, BY, Smith/s and so many other LDS teachers.

But this is what Mormonism is...it is a mess. can you think of any doctrine or teaching of the church that is not ? I really can't, there is always a Asterix.

 

[dberrie2020]

Universal salvation is both forced on every person born on this earth, and yet it requires acceptance in the preexistence and here, for the atonement...because as I wrote true salvation is exaltation.

Markk--you are masquerading as someone who knows or understands LDS theology, concerning the Atonement. The above statement proves otherwise, IMO.

 

[dberrie2020]

I thought in the LDS church, salvation--resurrection to immortality--comes to everyone, and is a gift.

In the theology of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the Biblical text---there were two deaths which automatically came to mankind-- in the Fall.

1) physical death
2)spiritual death

IOW--all men became mortal,(physical death) and were cast out from the presence of God(spiritual death)--in the Fall.

The Atonement and Resurrection of Jesus Christ absolved mankind of BOTH of those deaths which occurred in the Fall(physical and spiritual)--as a FREE gift to all men---as the scriptures testify to:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Please do note--"by the righteousness of one", "came upon", past tense--and "all men". Also--for man to be "justified of life"--both physical and spiritual death had to be absolved from mankind's account.

All men are then born saved--without condemnation--and answer for their own choices, if they reach an age where they are accountable for their own choices.

So--if one reaches an age where they are accountable, and refuse to accept and obey Jesus Christ(have faith in Christ)--then they suffer the "second death"--which is a spiritual death-- where they are banished from the presence of God, IE--they cannot enter into the kingdom of God, as a personal condemnation--due to their own personal choices--not Adam's:

Revelation 20:13-14---King James Version
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Please do note--this is the "second death", or--second spiritual death--the first one occurring in the Fall--which all men were absolved of in Jesus Christ's Atonement--as a free gift to all men.

The "second death" occurs due to one's own choices--and not Adam's--who brought the first spiritual death to mankind--which all were absolved of in the Atonement--as a free gift to all men. Please do note they were all judged according to their own works, not Adam's--as to the second death.

 

[Markk]

In the theology of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the Biblical text---there were two deaths which automatically came to mankind-- in the Fall.

1) physical death
2)spiritual death

IOW--all men became mortal,(physical death) and were cast out from the presence of God(spiritual death)--in the Fall.

The Atonement and Resurrection of Jesus Christ absolved mankind of BOTH of those deaths which occurred in the Fall(physical and spiritual)--as a FREE gift to all men---as the scriptures testify to:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Please do note--"by the righteousness of one", "came upon", past tense--and "all men". Also--for man to be "justified of life"--both physical and spiritual death had to be absolved from mankind's account.

All men are then born saved--without condemnation--and answer for their own choices, if they reach an age where they are accountable for their own choices.

So--if one reaches an age where they are accountable, and refuse to accept and obey Jesus Christ(have faith in Christ)--then they suffer the "second death"--which is a spiritual death-- where they are banished from the presence of God, IE--they cannot enter into the kingdom of God, as a personal condemnation--due to their own personal choices--not Adam's:

Revelation 20:13-14---King James Version
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Please do note--this is the "second death", or--second spiritual death--the first one occurring in the Fall--which all men were absolved of in Jesus Christ's Atonement--as a free gift to all men.

The "second death" occurs due to one's own choices--and not Adam's--who brought the first spiritual death to mankind--which all were absolved of in the Atonement--as a free gift to all men. Please do note they were all judged according to their own works, not Adam's--as to the second death.

That is not the reality of LDS doctrine, not even close. The plan of salvation is that mankind were eternal intelligences born somehow as spirits, reared by HF and HM with bodies, given a choice to be blessed with a mortal body and come to a earth with their memories erased, to prove themselves worthy by first accepting a the predetermined eternal law called the atonement. And if obedient to all the other eternal laws these folks can return to their HF and HM as Gods and do everything they did and start the cycle all over for their endless spirit children and worlds without end.

You are just making things up DB trying to force cherrypicked Bible verses as being LDS because you can not preach or teach LDS doctrine for obvious reason...they are embarrassing.

here is quick overview from LDS . org backed up by LDS doctrine. More later

Overview​

Premortality refers to our life before we were born on this earth. In our pre-earth life, we lived in the presence of our Heavenly Father as His spirit children. We did not have a physical body.

In this premortal existence, we attended a council with Heavenly Father’s other spirit children. At that council, Heavenly Father presented His great plan of happiness (see Abraham 3:22–26).

In harmony with the plan of happiness, the premortal Jesus Christ, the Firstborn Son of the Father in the spirit, covenanted to be the Savior (see Moses 4:2; Abraham 3:27). Those who followed Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ were permitted to come to the earth to experience mortality and progress toward eternal life. Lucifer, another spirit son of God, rebelled against the plan and “sought to destroy the agency of man” (Moses 4:3). He became Satan, and he and his followers were cast out of heaven and denied the privileges of receiving a physical body and experiencing mortality (see Moses 4:4; Abraham 3:27–28).

Throughout our premortal life, we developed our identity and increased our spiritual capabilities. Blessed with the gift of agency, we made important decisions, such as the decision to follow Heavenly Father’s plan. These decisions affected our life then and now. We grew in intelligence and learned to love the truth, and we prepared to come to the earth, where we could continue to progress.

 

[Markk]

Markk--you are masquerading as someone who knows or understands LDS theology, concerning the Atonement. The above statement proves otherwise, IMO.

Does the church teach you have to accept the atonement here on earth to progress...it is a simple question that you are ducking.

 

[Bonnie]

It is muddy at best...they use the term salvation in like 6 or 7 ways (elder Oaks). The two most common ones are universal and conditional. But the underlying reality is that as BRM stated, true salvation to the saint is exaltation.

Universal salvation is both forced on every person born on this earth, and yet it requires acceptance in the preexistence and here, for the atonement...because as I wrote true salvation is exaltation.

It is a muddy mess and I can argue it two or three different ways.

Eternal Laws are not really "rules"...but eternal truths. "Eternal" is the key here. This means they have always been, even before HF was exalted to godhood. He had to master or complete each eternal truth (Law) in order to become perfect and a God.

If math is a truth, he needs to know and understand every aspect of math, or science, or charity, love, compassion, justice, ...anything that exists and is a "truth", he needs to know and understand every bit of that truth, then and only then can it become his law and he a all knowing god.

LOL, I am not just making this stuff up, it was taught by...JFS, BRM, Talmage, Richards, Hunter, BY, Smith/s and so many other LDS teachers.

But this is what Mormonism is...it is a mess. can you think of any doctrine or teaching of the church that is not ? I really can't, there is always a Asterix.

It is an unholy mess. The LDS church robs its members of the simplicity that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Sad....and galling. Smith will have much to answer for when Jesus comes again at the resurrection from the dead.

 

[Markk]

It is an unholy mess. The LDS church robs its members of the simplicity that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Sad....and galling. Smith will have much to answer for when Jesus comes again at the resurrection from the dead.

If you have never been LDS, or better put "Mormon," it would be hard to understand the complexities of it, but you are doing a good job. Being LDS is a life of contradictions. There are some really cool things I would never trade in, about being raised Mormon. But there are other aspects that are just, for lack of a better term "messed up."

This might get a bit heavy, but I think you will get it being a pastors wife.

I attended a Evangelical Bible Collage after I left the church for a short few years, and it was really a eye opener on two really important things, from a philosophical POV.

#1...man is very complex...we are so all over the place, our relationships, our tribes, are wants and our needs...and especially are sinful hearts...it is just who we are....sinners trying to figure it out. #2..While God, is simple and anything but complex. God is simple...When Moses asked God, who shall I say sent me...God said I am what I am. He does not need, He is certainly self sufficient, and does not need anything.

We can't figure Him out, not even remotely. To do so IMO, is like a fly on the wall trying to figure out my life with all its complexities. It is not going to happen. Or my best friend, Rooster, My Cattle dog, trying to figure out while I go to work each day to buy his food...

Yet, in regard your post...Joseph had this all figured out, and he was so caviler, bringing God down to mans level. That God was once a man, and that man can become a God. He stated if you met God it would be like meeting him (paraphrase).

The "ministry" of JS echo's Satan in the garden...and that was a reality check for me.

 

[Richard7]

I understand that your position. I disagree with it. God not only owes it to himself but also to us. Otherwise our faith is in vain.

Because he said if we keep the commandments we would have eternal life. I don't buy into the delusion that it's impossible to keep the commandments. I believe it's impossible to be perfect. But I don't believe God ever promised us anything for being perfect. That's what he wants us to be, it is the objective, but it is not a requirement. Keeping the commandments is. And if we keep the commandments then we can expect that he will keep his word. If we couldn't expect that he'd keep his word our covenant with him would be worthless.

I agree. Blessings come in the Lord's time, not in ours. And so every time I do something good I don't expect a warm fuzzy from God. In fact, sometimes I do good things for people and they get offended. So it doesn't always work out great. But it is a long-term is the goal. Abraham didn't never received the land that God promised him even though he lived there it wasn't his. He never obtained the endless seed or seed that is greater than the number of the sands on the seashore or the stars in heaven. It's the long game. Will Abraham receive the Lord's promise? Does the Lord owe him that promise? I believe he does.

I don't believe the commandments are arbitrary. They all have a specific role in maintaining the order of good and honest people. And we must learn how to live those in order to live the kind of life that God lives. He lives his life because he keeps those commandments. There are probably a few people who will disagree with that statement.

Every good thing comes from God. It doesn't matter whether you believe in him or not. And I don't believe it matters the reason you do good things for other people. I'm not saying that doing good things will save you. And I'm not saying that doing good things makes or puts God into a position where he owes you something. What puts him in a position where he owes you something is when you have a covenant with him and you keep your end of the covenant.

So, what you're saying is that if you did everything God asked you to do and you arrived at the judgment seat only to find yourself condemned hell, wouldn't you feel cheated?
You can't be cheated if you don't think the other party owed you something. Tell me if I'm wrong.

Would you be fine with that? Do you really believe that God doesn't owe you everything he promised you?

I didn't really mean to argue with you about this. I was just saying that in my opinion or from the way I see it if God makes a promise to us he owes us that promise if we meet our end. That makes sense to me.

I don't know how any of this fits with the scripture that says anyone who says they keep the commandments as a liar. Or this particular issue about God not owing us anything. I have never understood that. If you do what he says, he's obligated.

Yes, God keeps his promise but I never, just my opinion, expect or feel I earned that blessing.... why, because I'm not able to sacrifice enough to feel in any way I could ever repay Christ for his ultimate and eternal Sacrifice.... I have received every blessing in my life with humanity and acknowledgment He is our and my Lord and Savior, my sins burden me, and I act accordingly in total humility and so much love for God and His only begotten Son in the flesh... so respectfully I don't totally agree with you...
Love you brother...

 

[Markk]

Yes, God keeps his promise but I never, just my opinion, expect or feel I earned that blessing.... why, because I'm not able to sacrifice enough to feel in any way I could ever repay Christ for his ultimate and eternal Sacrifice.... I have received every blessing in my life with humanity and acknowledgment He is our and my Lord and Savior, my sins burden me, and I act accordingly in total humility and so much love for God and His only begotten Son in the flesh... so respectfully I don't totally agree with you...
Love you brother...

Ralf, I am glad you feel that way, but what you just wrote is not Mormonism. read D&C 130, AoF 3...etc.

LDS salvation or exaltation is a personal salvation, for personal sins, and Christ died so you can earn your blessings. BoJ understand LDS theology that God owe you when you work...that is what is meant by meriting salvation, or eternal life.

You are getting it though, I'm proud of you, Grace changes everything.

 

[dberrie2020]

It is an unholy mess. The LDS church robs its members of the simplicity that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Sad....

That seems to be the hollow accusation the critics make here.

And I suppose the critics should be given the opportunity to support that with posting what scripture is found in the Biblical NT--which isn't fond in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go.

The fact is--the critics here can't even support their own doctrines with the Biblical scriptures--and that has been demonstrated. I post numerous different scriptures to show that reality.

When you can support your accusation the "mormons" must earn every blessing--please let us know.

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

 

[dberrie2020]

Does the church teach you have to accept the atonement here on earth to progress...it is a simple question that you are ducking.

Markk--I am going to repost my answer to this question you continue to regurgitate over and over--post #211:

----------------------------------------------------------

post #211----"As I have reiterated to you on numerous occasions--there is nothing required of mankind in order to receive the free gift of the Atonement and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is without conditions. It went to all men as a free, unconditional gift.

We can accept or reject that, but it does nothing to effect the fact the Redemption from the Fall was a free gift to all men. Unconditional.

I'm not sure why you can't comprehend that, as it's theology of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the multiple references I have given you are clear in that arena.

Markk--I don't believe you know LDS theology--period. I do. I have studied it for years, and I live it out in my daily life. You don't.

As to the forgiveness of sins--that is not the free gift. That is a conditional blessing which requires our obedience to Jesus Christ.

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

It is through the Atonement of Jesus Christ the Blood is applied in the forgiveness of sins, but that is the conditional side of the Atonement, not the free gift.

That has been explained numerous times--and in several threads here lately, and claiming it isn't LDS theology won't change that, it only makes it apparent you don't understand LDS theology."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Atonement and Resurrection of Jesus Christ allows all men to progress unto eternal life--without conditions of belief, faith, obedience, endurance, etc. Absolutely free. Unconditional.

Whether they actually do progress or not--depends on their personal choices, not Adam's.

To find those who claim there are conditions to the free gift--one will have to turn to the critics here. They might claim there are conditions to it. The LDS church doesn't.

Kind of an anomaly--isn't it? Bonnie claiming the "mormons" having to earn every blessing--and then-- it's her claim there is a condition to the free gift!!!! The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do not believe there is a single condition to the free gift going to all men--as testified in Romans5:18!

What a contradiction. What an anomaly.

 

[dberrie2020]

That is not the reality of LDS doctrine, not even close.

Markk--you are still masquerading as someone who knows or understands LDS theology, concerning the Atonement. The critics here might fool some into swallowing their worms they excavate by digging up the countryside--but I don't. I know better--and have posted the beliefs of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in D Todd Christofferson's General Conference talk--posted here on more than one occasion in this very thread, alongside of the LDS.org quotes posted in this thread.

If you would like--please review it:


Redemption--D Todd Christofferson, of the quorum of the twelve--April 2013--General Conference

"In colonial times, labor was in great demand in America. During the 18th and early 19th centuries, potential immigrant laborers were recruited in Great Britain and Germany and other European countries. But many who were willing to go could not afford the cost of travel. It was not uncommon for these to travel under an indenture or contract, promising to work after their arrival for a certain period of time without wages as payment for their passage. Others came with a promise that family members already in America would pay their fare upon arrival. But if that didn't happen, the newcomers were obliged to pay their own costs through indentured service. The term used to describe these indentured immigrants was redemptioners. They had to redeem the cost of their passage--in a sense, purchase their freedom--by their labor. Among the most significant of Jesus Christ's descriptive titles is Redeemer. As indicated in my brief account of the immigrant "redemptioners," the word redeem means to pay off an obligation or a debt. Redeem can also mean to rescue or set free, as by paying a ransom. If someone commits a mistake and then corrects it or makes amends, we say he has redeemed himself. Each of these meanings suggest different facets of the great Redemption accomplished by Jesus Christ through His Atonement, which includes, in the words of the dictionary, "to deliver from sin and its penalties, as by a sacrifice made for the sinner." The Savior's redemption has two parts. First, it atones for Adam's transgression and the consequent Fall of man by overcoming what could be called the direct effects of the Fall--physical death and spiritual death. Physical death is well understood; spiritual death is the separation of man from God. In the words of Paul, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." This redemption from physical and spiritual death is both universal and without condition."


BYU--Harold B Lee Library--Fall of Adam
"Jesus Christ redeems all mankind unconditionally from the two deaths brought by the Fall of Adam."

More from LDS.org
"He made a perfect atonement for all mankind. All are covered unconditionally as pertaining to the Fall of Adam. Hence, all shall rise from the dead with immortal bodies because of Jesus’ Atonement."

 

[Iconoclast]

And the obedience to the Law in which all men received the free gift of the Atonement--was performed by Jesus Christ alone--not mankind in general. Not us. It was a free gift to all men. Unconditional, to us. Absolutely free.

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

So--please allow me to reprint this concern to you and Bonnie:

"As I have relayed to you on more than one occasion--the claim "Mormons are required to earn each blessing"(Bonnie)--just isn't true.

The members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe the Atonement and resurrection of Jesus Christ is a free gift to all men--unconditional. God died for all men--unconditionally. Please stop posting falsehoods, and bearing a false witness."

The free gift of God is only given to believers. you do not understand Romans 5 at all.

 

[Richard7]

Ralf, I am glad you feel that way, but what you just wrote is not Mormonism. read D&C 130, AoF 3...etc.

LDS salvation or exaltation is a personal salvation, for personal sins, and Christ died so you can earn your blessings. BoJ understand LDS theology that God owe you when you work...that is what is meant by meriting salvation, or eternal life.

You are getting it though, I'm proud of you, Grace changes everything.

You have no idea of what you're talking about Markk, your ways of thinking are so foreign to me...

 

[Richard7]

The free gift of God is only given to believers. you do not understand Romans 5 at all.

You're so wrong, the free gift of the atonement (resurrection) was given to all... you are telling us that only a select few will be restored to their physical bodies, where can you show that in the scriptures...??

 

[Iconoclast]

Hebrews 2 answers you in full. It describes the true Identity of the children the Father has given to the Son.
Who are the everyone of Vs.9???
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

It is not everyone as you suggest, but rather they are described by those portions highlighted in red

 

[Bonnie]

You're so wrong, the free gift of the atonement (resurrection) was given to all... you are telling us that only a select few will be restored to their physical bodies, where can you show that in the scriptures...??

Just the resurrection in Mormonese...but Mormons must earn eternal life--exaltation to godhood--by jumping through all kinds of "hoops"--especially temple works.

"The wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is life eternal IN Christ Jesus our Lord."

Does one pay for a gift? Do your children and grandchildren pay for the birthday and Christmas gifts you give them?

 

[brotherofJared]

Whether they actually do progress or not--depends on their personal choices, not Adam's.

Amen!