brotherofJared
Well-known member
Try to keep up. If what you said is true, then it's not free. You just described a condition.The free gift of God is only given to believers. you do not understand Romans 5 at all.
Try to keep up. If what you said is true, then it's not free. You just described a condition.The free gift of God is only given to believers. you do not understand Romans 5 at all.
Yep. Salvation isn't free. Salvation has conditions. The free gift doesn't10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
The ones highlighted in red receive salvation and it is conditional, not free.It is not everyone as you suggest, but rather they are described by those portions highlighted in red
Temple works have nothing to do with salvation amongst the living. The only hoops we have to jump through is to follow Christ.Just the resurrection in Mormonese...but Mormons must earn eternal life--exaltation to godhood--by jumping through all kinds of "hoops"--especially temple works.
It is muddy at best...they use the term salvation in like 6 or 7 ways (elder Oaks). The two most common ones are universal and conditional. But the underlying reality is that as BRM stated, true salvation to the saint is exaltation.
Universal salvation is both forced on every person born on this earth, and yet it requires acceptance in the preexistence and here, for the atonement...because as I wrote true salvation is exaltation.
It is a muddy mess and I can argue it two or three different ways.
Eternal Laws are not really "rules"...but eternal truths. "Eternal" is the key here. This means they have always been, even before HF was exalted to godhood. He had to master or complete each eternal truth (Law) in order to become perfect and a God.
If math is a truth, he needs to know and understand every aspect of math, or science, or charity, love, compassion, justice, ...anything that exists and is a "truth", he needs to know and understand every bit of that truth, then and only then can it become his law and he a all knowing god.
LOL, I am not just making this stuff up, it was taught by...JFS, BRM, Talmage, Richards, Hunter, BY, Smith/s and so many other LDS teachers.
Hmmmm.....not really. But I'll bet people who have Mormon missionaries come to their doors and who get talked into joining the LDS are not taught 1/10 of what the LDS teaches, about how God was first a man who had to learn how to become a God; that Jesus and Satan are actual brothers in the supposed pre-mortal existence...that men can become gods by doing all of those temple works, the WoW, etc....that polygamy is an everlasting....what is the word?...covenant? That will be practiced in the CK for those men who are exalted go godhood, correct? I asked this of Janice and she could not answer, either--if a man dies having only been married to one woman...where are those other women he is supposed to have in exaltation going to come from?But this is what Mormonism is...it is a mess. can you think of any doctrine or teaching of the church that is not ? I really can't, there is always a Asterix.
The free gift of God is only given to believers. you do not understand Romans 5 at all.
Yep, and exaltation is dependent upon what people do in this life, how obedient they are, whether or not they have done ...
I can keep up, however you lack some basic understanding evidently.Try to keep up. If what you said is true, then it's not free. You just described a condition.
Sure, no problem. Get a piece of paper and draw a big circle. Call that big circle all men born in Adam physically, who died spiritually in the fall.So--please tell us if the condemnation due to the Fall came to all men here:
Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
They are not born again, we LDS would agree....how does that affect the free gift given to all men... you never addressed that scripture, why?Sure, no problem. Get a piece of paper and draw a big circle. Call that big circle all men born in Adam physically, who died spiritually in the fall.
Now draw a second circle inside that big circle, maybe 2/3 the size of the first. Write inside the second circle, all who are IN Christ, by being born again, spiritually. all men had a physical birth....not all are born again...CAN YOU SEE IT YET
Two groups all in Adam.....All In Christ
Many will accept the Plan of Salvation, some won't... what Glory? Eternal Life!Hebrews 2 answers you in full. It describes the true Identity of the children the Father has given to the Son.
Who are the everyone of Vs.9???
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
They are one in Christ...naturally.11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Only the believers will recognized the name... and will worship the Father and the Son...12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
Faith is the trust, all of Christ adopted sons and daughters.13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
All born to the earth, and Christ condescended unto life of flesh and bone... being likewise the same as us (physical body) except he was God and had power over death...14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
All men are subject to bondage, the opposite of predestination...15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
It is not everyone as you suggest, but rather they are described by those portions highlighted in red
You really did not answer the question, you preach only those who are saved can be resurrected, I asked where is that found in the scriptures.Just the resurrection in Mormonese...but Mormons must earn eternal life--exaltation to godhood--by jumping through all kinds of "hoops"--especially temple works.
"The wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is life eternal IN Christ Jesus our Lord."
Does one pay for a gift? Do your children and grandchildren pay for the birthday and Christmas gifts you give them?
Read it slowly....two groups of AllThey are not born again, we LDS would agree....how does that affect the free gift given to all men... you never addressed that scripture, why?
1]Death upon all men ever born in AdamThey are not born again, we LDS would agree....how does that affect the free gift given to all men... you never addressed that scripture, why?
Many will accept the Plan of Salvation, some won't... what Glory? Eternal Life!
No one is ine in Christ naturally, the natural man cannot accept the things of GodThey are one in Christ...naturally.
You ignore the portions I bolded in red as they tell us who is in view. You desire to make up your own ideas, rather than what scripture declares
Only the believers will recognized the name... and will worship the Father and the Son...
This passage does not include all mankind. The everyonre of vs.9 is described by those portions you ignore.Faith is the trust, all of Christ adopted sons and daughters.
It is not speaking of all men
All born to the earth, and Christ condescended unto life of flesh and bone... being likewise the same as us (physical body) except he was God and had power over death...
You totally ignore that it does not say the seed of Adam, but rather the seed of AbrahamHebrews 2, more context:
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
no, your hatred of predestination keeps you in ignorance on this17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. Try
triumph over satan and death...
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour (support) them that are tempted.
All men are subject to bondage, the opposite of predestination...
This has never been true in History, and it is not true right now.many live and die in their sinsBut everyone has the opportunity to embrace the gospel,
HERE you openly oppose the truth of God.not the chosen or elect as some preach,
You have no grasp on Covenant truth.in embracing we become part of the House of Israel. The chosen linage through Abraham and down through Issac and Jacob we cam all, and I mean all be made adopted son and daughter of the seed of Abraham and Israel...
Sure, no problem. Get a piece of paper and draw a big circle. Call that big circle all men born in Adam physically, who died spiritually in the fall.
Now draw a second circle inside that big circle, maybe 2/3 the size of the first. Write inside the second circle, all who are IN Christ, by being born again, spiritually. all men had a physical birth....not all are born again...CAN YOU SEE IT YET
Two groups all in Adam.....All In Christ
The word free is used three times in the link, nothing about the gift being free, it reads you have to accept the atonement. The only thing you are guaranteed is the resurrection,.....
Just the resurrection in Mormonese...
but Mormons must earn eternal life--exaltation to godhood--by jumping through all kinds of "hoops"--
"The wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is life eternal IN Christ Jesus our Lord."
Does one pay for a gift?
Do your children and grandchildren pay for the birthday and Christmas gifts you give them?
I did no such thing, Richard. Please show me where I wrote that. I am not required to show you in Scripture a straw man you set up that I never even wrote on here.You really did not answer the question, you preach only those who are saved can be resurrected, I asked where is that found in the scriptures.
"The wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is life eternal IN Christ Jesus our Lord."
Does one pay for a gift? Do your children and grandchildren pay for the birthday and Christmas gifts you give them?"
In your church, salvation is just resurrection from the dead into immortal bodies.
But in your church, full salvation is eternal life--exaltation--to the CK after death and only comes to those who have jumped through all of the Mormon "hoops" like doing temple works and keeping a temple recommend until death. Where is THIS found in Scripture????