Who or What is the Trinity ?

[Jewjitzu]

It its not a matter of being of authority, although by a decree written somewhere in an ancient scroll centuries after their deaths, they do have post Apostolic authority in relation too, lets say you and I.

No such authority as Apostolic authority authorized in Tanakh. Gentiles don't have authority over me. Though, you can grab my hem...

But beyond all that you cannot refute this name Trinity,, which in is strictest sense signifies the number of persons related or the number of persons of one essence , as God the Father is not three persons, and because Trine does not signify the relations themselves, hence it is that the word Trinity in itself does not express regard to another .Furthermore none of your anti Trinitarian ERRONIOUS theological sciences NEGATE ,adoring the distinction of persons and the equality of their majesty".

Hope that helps.....Alan

It didn't help any. I'll ask you again, so, do each of the persons worship each other? Generate each other? Etc.

Try to avoid the copy and paste stuff you use, Alan.

 

[aeg4971]

Here is an anti Trinitarian verse that negates adoring the distinction of persons...

Psalm 86:10... For You are great, and do wondrous things; You alone are God.

David was praying to a Person and told them "You alone" are God.

I said adoring the distinction of persons, I did not say adoring the individual beings and gods. there is a vast difference that you obstinately refuse to acknowledge .

.......Alan

 

[aeg4971]

For one thing, Jesus' name in Hebrew means YH is salvation.

The HS is just a reference to the spirit of holiness, not a person, meaning fulfilling a commandment.

So, baptizing in the name of the Father, YH is salvation, in the spirit of holiness.

Only one person counts here


See above or Stephen is an idolater.


Tell me, what term is used in scripture to differentiate between a being or person?

YHWH is salvation in the Son, and this is in distinction of YHWH the Father.

Hope that helps.....Alan

 

[aeg4971]

No such authority as Apostolic authority authorized in Tanakh. Gentiles don't have authority over me. Though, you can grab my hem...


It didn't help any. I'll ask you again, so, do each of the persons worship each other? Generate each other? Etc.

Try to avoid the copy and paste stuff you use, Alan.

You are not the Tanakh but you prefer I concur your theological suppositions instead of the ancient post Apostolic theologians. Well that is not going to happen, therefore I have no idea what point you intended to make by throwing up the Tanakh.

......Alan

 

[Jewjitzu]

YHWH is salvation in the Son, and this is in distinction of YHWH the Father.

Hope that helps.....Alan

The name doesn't say that. Your ancients taught you that?

 

[Jewjitzu]

You are not the Tanakh but you prefer I concur your theological suppositions instead of the ancient post Apostolic theologians. Well that is not going to happen, therefore I have no idea what point you intended to make by throwing up the Tanakh.

......Alan

I'm not under the authority of gentiles, your ancients, only under the Jewish prophets, sages, the God of Israel.

So, can't you answer if your 3 persons equally worship each other, generate each other, subordinate to each other, etc.?

 

[aeg4971]

No such authority as Apostolic authority authorized in Tanakh. Gentiles don't have authority over me. Though, you can grab my hem...


It didn't help any. I'll ask you again, so, do each of the persons worship each other? Generate each other? Etc.

Try to avoid the copy and paste stuff you use, Alan.

Your question is supposed as if divine persons are individual subjects . Our word is accidental and utterance ,God Word is substantial generation and the distinct person of the Son.

Hope that helps.....Alan

 

[Jewjitzu]

Your question is supposed as if divine persons are individual subjects . Our word is accidental and utterance ,God Word is substantial generation and the distinct person of the Son.

Hope that helps.....Alan

Nope. Cut and paste doesn't help. Don't you have a mind of your own?

So the son is generated and not true God. Got it!

 

[johnny guitar]

So according to your TRINITARIAN view...

David was NOT praying to a Person.

So just to clarify...

If someone had asked David if he was praying to a Person, would he have said Yes or would he have said No?

I think David would have said Yes.

If you say Yes...

Then David was "NEGATING the distinction of persons", which is what @aeg4971 asked for proof of.

The distinction of Persons was NOT clearly revealed in The O.T.

 

[Jewjitzu]

And here's one that does not negate the distinction of persons. Matthew 28:19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit."

So tell, why does not this verse just say, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of God?" Or in the name of God alone? And Stephen at Acts 7:59-60 he was praying to Jesus Christ in his dying breath. Why does not Acts 7:59-60 say, "Receive my spirit God?"

After all these years you still can't understand the difference between "being" and "persons."

IN GOD THE SON,
james

Hey Herman, are you going to answer me?

 

[101G]

There is only one God and one creator. And yes, Isaiah 44:24 does say the Lord God created all alone and by Himself, period. So, since you quoted John 1:3 please tell me why the Son is identified or presented as the Agent of creation, not only in this verse but also at Colossians 1:16-17, Hebrews 1:10 and Revelation 3:14 by the Apostles and God the Father at Hebrews 1:10? The Father says explicitly referring to the Son, "And Thou, Lord didst in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Thy hands."

GINOLJC, to all. you missed what you just said, "he was all ALONE", so he couldn't have went through anyone, because he was "ALL ALONE". meaning there is no 2nd, or third person.

Now as for who Laid the foundation of the earth, this explains what I been saying, listen and LEARN, Hebrews 1:10 "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:"
ok, who Laid the foundations of the EARTH in the beginning? THE "Lord" correct as Hebrews 1:10 states... right, well lets see, Zechariah 12:1 "The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him."

now either you have two separate, and distinct creators who laid the foundation of the Earth, (which is anti Bible), or the LORD, and the Lord is the same one person in an ECHAD, just as I have been saying. all along.... BINGO. the Same one person in an ECHAD of First "LORD", and "LAST "Lord".

PICJAG, 101G.

 

[101G]

On the contrary you suppose two separate creators , whereas we signify one person and another. That does not carry the same meaning you seek to import in the divine try as you might.

Hope that helps.....Alan

ERROR, see Post #639 above.

PICJAG, 1012G.

 

[jamesh]

GINOLJC, to all. you missed what you just said, "he was all ALONE", so he couldn't have went through anyone, because he was "ALL ALONE". meaning there is no 2nd, or third person.

Now as for who Laid the foundation of the earth, this explains what I been saying, listen and LEARN, Hebrews 1:10 "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:"
ok, who Laid the foundations of the EARTH in the beginning? THE "Lord" correct as Hebrews 1:10 states... right, well lets see, Zechariah 12:1 "The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him."

now either you have two separate, and distinct creators who laid the foundation of the Earth, (which is anti Bible), or the LORD, and the Lord is the same one person in an ECHAD, just as I have been saying. all along.... BINGO. the Same one person in an ECHAD of First "LORD", and "LAST "Lord".

PICJAG, 101G.

Ok Mr. All alone, let me try it this way? At Hebrews 1 it's obvious you have not considered the context. At Hebrews 1:5 it's God the Father who is referencing His Son when He/the Father says, "Thou art My Son. At vs6, the Father says, "And let all the angels WORSHIP Him. Follow along with me.

At Hebrews 1:6, the Father says of the Son, "Thy throne O God, is forever and ever. Then we come to Hebrews 1:10 where the Father says, "Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Thy hands." You can't just explain all of this away by quoting Zechariah 12:1 or even Isaiah 44:24 where it clearly says, "God created all alone and by Himself." It's required of you to reconcile what appears to be a contra-diction. Although there are no contradictions in the Bible. So, reconcile this please!

Also, Mr. Alone, Jesus said at Luke 4:8, "it is written, You shall worship the Lord your God and served Him only." Can you please tell me why God the Father said to Jesus Christ that He/Jesus should be worshipped by the angels at Hebrews 1:6? Moreover, Thomas declared to Jesus Christ Himself that He/Jesus was his "Lord and God." This is clear declaration of the highest form of worship, do you agree?

Here's another example from Acts 7:59 where Stephen prays to Jesus and says, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!" Verse 60, And in Stephens last dying breath says, "And falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, Lord, do not hold this sin against them." The person that's really "alone" is you and your errant theology.

IN GOD THE SON,
james

 

[Jewjitzu]

Ok Mr. All alone, let me try it this way? At Hebrews 1 it's obvious you have not considered the context. At Hebrews 1:5 it's God the Father who is referencing His Son when He/the Father says, "Thou art My Son. At vs6, the Father says, "And let all the angels WORSHIP Him. Follow along with me.

At Hebrews 1:6, the Father says of the Son, "Thy throne O God, is forever and ever. Then we come to Hebrews 1:10 where the Father says, "Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Thy hands." You can't just explain all of this away by quoting Zechariah 12:1 or even Isaiah 44:24 where it clearly says, "God created all alone and by Himself." It's required of you to reconcile what appears to be a contra-diction. Although there are no contradictions in the Bible. So, reconcile this please!

Also, Mr. Alone, Jesus said at Luke 4:8, "it is written, You shall worship the Lord your God and served Him only." Can you please tell me why God the Father said to Jesus Christ that He/Jesus should be worshipped by the angels at Hebrews 1:6? Moreover, Thomas declared to Jesus Christ Himself that He/Jesus was his "Lord and God." This is clear declaration of the highest form of worship, do you agree?

Here's another example from Acts 7:59 where Stephen prays to Jesus and says, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!" Verse 60, And in Stephens last dying breath says, "And falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, Lord, do not hold this sin against them." The person that's really "alone" is you and your errant theology.

IN GOD THE SON,
james

Herman, what's up? Rotfl...

You do know Hebrews is lying above, right?

 

[101G]

Ok Mr. All alone, let me try it this way? At Hebrews 1 it's obvious you have not considered the context. At Hebrews 1:5 it's God the Father who is referencing His Son when He/the Father says, "Thou art My Son. At vs6, the Father says, "And let all the angels WORSHIP Him. Follow along with me.

At Hebrews 1:6, the Father says of the Son, "Thy throne O God, is forever and ever. Then we come to Hebrews 1:10 where the Father says, "Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Thy hands." You can't just explain all of this away by quoting Zechariah 12:1 or even Isaiah 44:24 where it clearly says, "God created all alone and by Himself." It's required of you to reconcile what appears to be a contra-diction. Although there are no contradictions in the Bible. So, reconcile this please!

First thanks for the reply, second, I'm not all alone..... the Lord Jesus, all his apostles, and the early Church disciples, and all the saints are with me.

understand, Hebrew 1 makes it's very plain where we stand. listen, Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom." here the definite article is used of the Son. so this shows the ECHAD of God clear as Day. the Ordinal First and the Ordinal Last. this is clear as day, who is only ONE PERSON, diversified in Flesh.

now listen and learn, God is the EQUAL share of himself in flesh, (per Isaiah 63:5, and Isaiah 53). do you understand that? and this manifestation of this "ARM" of God is clearly revealed in Phil. 2:6. now if you don't umderstand just ask.

now once more, Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:" NOTICE... "One" LORD", do you see the difference now?
once again, listen and lear, Jesus the Son, the Son of God was not at Genesis 1:1 nor at Genesis 1:26 when he God, Jesus made man, but JESUS was there...... ? did you grasp that statement, meaning, understanding what it said? see, Jesus the Son, the Son of God didn't make man, male and female, listen and learn, Matthew 19:4 "And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female," did you here that? but it was Jesus the Ordinal First who made man. see that statement for the Son tell us that he didn't make man. and to be sure that the "he" that he speak of is "GOD", well our Brother Mark certify that God at Genesis 1:26 is a "HE", one Person, Mark 10:6 "But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female." BINGO... see J, God is a "he", not them, but a "HE", one person...... but a ECHAD of Ordinals as Deuteronomy 6:4.

now the statement that our Lord Jesus made in Matthew 19:4 put an end to any three person Godhead.... ? YIKES!.

Also, Mr. Alone, Jesus said at Luke 4:8, "it is written, You shall worship the Lord your God and served Him only." Can you please tell me why God the Father said to Jesus Christ that He/Jesus should be worshipped by the angels at Hebrews 1:6? Moreover, Thomas declared to Jesus Christ Himself that He/Jesus was his "Lord and God." This is clear declaration of the highest form of worship, do you agree?

have I not said this? read the above statement..... (smile).

Here's another example from Acts 7:59 where Stephen prays to Jesus and says, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!" Verse 60, And in Stephens last dying breath says, "And falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, Lord, do not hold this sin against them." The person that's really "alone" is you and your errant theology.

OK, who did our brother Stephen see? God himself, jesus in a glorified body. the Amalgamation of the ordinal First and the Ordinal Last.

SEE IT'S YOU WHO IS ALONE, WITH A WHOLE LOT OF COMPANY..... did you understand that......

but thanks for the inquary, but if you are in the dark..... LIGHT is at hand, JUST ASK.

NOW SINCE YOU WANT TO GIVE AN EXAMPLE, FINE, let us prove our point CLEARLY. listen carefully.... in Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"
question, "WHO SENT HIS ANGEL?", now before you answer, we suggewsy you read Revelation 22:6 "And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done."

now J, who sent his angel? when you answer, this will answer the Father and the Son QUESTION....... ?


thanks in advance of your answer......

PICJAG, 101G.

 

[aeg4971]

GINOLJC, to all. you missed what you just said, "he was all ALONE", so he couldn't have went through anyone, because he was "ALL ALONE". meaning there is no 2nd, or third person.

Now as for who Laid the foundation of the earth, this explains what I been saying, listen and LEARN, Hebrews 1:10 "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:"
ok, who Laid the foundations of the EARTH in the beginning? THE "Lord" correct as Hebrews 1:10 states... right, well lets see, Zechariah 12:1 "The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him."

now either you have two separate, and distinct creators who laid the foundation of the Earth, (which is anti Bible), or the LORD, and the Lord is the same one person in an ECHAD, just as I have been saying. all along.... BINGO. the Same one person in an ECHAD of First "LORD", and "LAST "Lord".

PICJAG, 101G.

I do hate to go semi scholastic on you, but God alone! The Almighty God who spread forth the heavens and earth alone and all by Himself ,is the same God of love and because of your suppose solitary suppositions of alone to make you feel more monotheistic , doesn't NEGATE that of His own nature ,it was the love of God own goodness that He should regard Himself to another.

I said that to say by ancient standards," So what God is alone and by Himself , that is why of His own being, He begat the co eternal in the first place if I'm being dramatic about it ,.. You don't get to circumvent or gloss over the distinction in Godhead , simply because we adore the distinction of persons and the equality of their majesty.

A simple quote (although there are many ) from the 13th century Latin doctor communis for a 5th grader to comprehend.

," Only God is simultaneously all that He could be, infinitely real and infinitely perfect, what we call attributes are really identical with His ESSENCE ".

God is alone and by Himself even when we say ," God is Trine that is to say ,whereby there are three supposita of Godhead . It follows we do not contradict God alone ,or the Son sitting at the right hand of the Father ,or the Holy Spirit in us and working through us . Why? again in the words of the doctor communis for a 5th grader comprehension :

But nothing that exist in God can have any relation to that wherein it exist or to whom it is spoken except the relation of identity and this is by reason of God supreme simplicity"

God is nowise made of body, therefore We do not have multiple creators ,but there are several persons having Godhead.

Just one more quote from the doctor communis for a 5th grader;

When we say," several persons having Godhead ,we do not imply diversity in Him ,nor that anything imperfect should exist in God , but rather we mean that, the divine essence comprehends within itself the perfection of All being

14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

You remain refuted..

Hope that helps......Alan

 

[101G]

I do hate to go semi scholastic on you, but God alone! The Almighty God who spread forth the heavens and earth alone and all by Himself ,is the same God of love and because of your suppose solitary suppositions of alone to make you feel more monotheistic , doesn't NEGATE that of His own nature ,it was the love of God own goodness that He should regard Himself to another.

I said that to say by ancient standards," So what God is alone and by Himself , that is why of His own being, He begat the co eternal in the first place if I'm being dramatic about it ,.. You don't get to circumvent or gloss over the distinction in Godhead , simply because we adore the distinction of persons and the equality of their majesty.

A simple quote (although there are many ) from the 13th century Latin doctor communis for a 5th grader to comprehend.



God is alone and by Himself even when we say ," God is Trine that is to say ,whereby there are three supposita of Godhead . It follows we do not contradict God alone ,or the Son sitting at the right hand of the Father ,or the Holy Spirit in us and working through us . Why? again in the words of the doctor communis for a 5th grader comprehension :



God is nowise made of body, therefore We do not have multiple creators ,but there are several persons having Godhead.

Just one more quote from the doctor communis for a 5th grader;



14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

You remain refuted..

Hope that helps......Alan

ERROR on your part, see in the topic, and this post, https://forums.carm.org/threads/is-...on-of-the-trinity-or-the-3rd.2708/post-227793

PICJAG, 101G.

 

[Yahchristian]

The distinction of Persons was NOT clearly revealed in The O.T.

I agree !!!

But........ that was NOT the question.

I asked...

If someone had asked David if he was praying to a Person, would he have said Yes or would he have said No?

I think David would have said Yes.

 

[johnny guitar]

I agree !!!

But........ that was NOT the question.

I asked...

If someone had asked David if he was praying to a Person, would he have said Yes or would he have said No?

I think David would have said Yes.

Don't know what David would have said other than he was praying to The ONE God.

 

[johnny guitar]

Where is that written in the scripture sir?"God exists eternally and simultaneously as Father, Son and Holy Spirit"
Anyway you must also believe that God died or at least part of God died.
Plus how does that relate to Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: Clearly speaking about Jesus.

Yep, about Jesus The MAN.