Kenosis Heresy

[Yahweh will increase]

You keep rolling around on the floor laughing out loud. When on earth do you get time to respond...
So your claim it is that it is not a messianic prophesy and that one of Isaiah's sons was God with us.

Ok, Matthew musta got it wrong....
22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet:
23 Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel (which means, God with us).


So was Matthew it seems....
22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet:
23 Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel (which means, God with us).

Yes and the above keeps me laughing also, for I told you that the prophecy was intended to have two fulfillments and the Hebrew word "virgin" can mean either a real virgin or a young woman and therefore it applied to Isaiah's wife as a young woman and to Mary the mother of Jesus as a true virgin.

You are just being willingly ignorant of the context of Isaiah 7:14, for the proof of what I said is right there in the context and also in the chapters before and after concerning the meaning of the names of Isaiah's sons as messages from God to the people, for that is what they were.

Therefore the meaning of the name "Emmanuel" given to Isaiah's second son, was in its first fulfillment a message to the King and people of Judah and Jerusalem that although the the two Kings Resin of Aram and Pekah King of Israel were conspiring to overtake them, God would be with them and their plot would therefore fail.

For heaven sake, read the context of the chapter starting with the first verse, for the meaning of name of "Emmanuel" given to Isaiah's second son was a sign from God that King Resin of Aram and King Pekah of Israel would not be succeed in their plan to overthrow the King and the people of Judah and Jerusalem.

By the way, doesn't it just bug you to no end that even many of your more sensible trin scholars would agree with me on this?

Therefore following its first fulfillment, as the meaning of the name "Emmanuel" as a message that God would be with his people to save them from King Resin and King Pekah, it applies in a similar way with Jesus as being a message from God that through the redemption and atonement that Jesus would make for us, God would be with us in a way in which we never would have experienced before.


For through Jesus, God now actually dwells within the hearts of all of his people and that is what the sign of the virgin birth of Jesus and his name means to us.

I think I will stick with the Word of God instead of with the word of someone rolling around on the floor laughing out loud all the time. I can just see it in my minds eye, you reading Matthew 1:22-23 and then rolling around on the floor laughing out loud at Matthew, and calling him ignorant.

That is precisely the problem, for you are actually rejecting the true context of Isaiah 7 and therefore you cannot possibly be sticking to the word of God but instead you are sticking to the ignorant trins who taught you, for they are wrong.

 

[101G]

Are you a proponent of KJV-only?

NO, the Holy Ghost ONLY.

PICJAG, 101G.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

Are you a proponent of KJV-only?

Yep, the KJV butchers what is truly stated in Hebrews 2:16 but many of his camp love the KJV on this verse and for obvious reasons also.

 

[101G]

Yep, the KJV butchers what is truly stated in Hebrews 2:16 but many of his camp love the KJV on this verse and for obvious reasons also.

How is it, as you say, the kjv "butchers what is truly stated" in Hebrews 2:16 "For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham."

well?

PICJAG, 101G.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

Jesus is the Lord in Joel, Isaiah and Jeremiah
Joel 2:27-32
27 "Thus you will know that I am in the midst of Israel,

And that I am the Lord your God,

And there is no other;

And My people will never be put to shame.

28 " It will come about after this

That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind;

And your sons and daughters will prophesy,

Your old men will dream dreams,

Your young men will see visions.

29 "Even on the male and female servants

I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

30 "I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth,

Blood, fire and columns of smoke.

31 "The sun will be turned into darkness

And the moon into blood

Before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.

32 "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord

Will be delivered;

For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem

There will be those who escape,

As the Lord has said,

Even among the survivors whom the Lord calls.

Rom 10:9-13
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of C all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Isa 45:21-24
Is it not I, the Lord?

And there is no other God besides Me,

A righteous God and a Savior;

There is none except Me.

22 " Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;

For I am God, and there is no other.

23 "I have sworn by Myself,

The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness

And will not turn back,

That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.

24 "They will say of Me, 'Only in the Lord are righteousness and strength.'

Phil 2:9-11
For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Rom 14:10-12
For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11 For it is written,

" AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,

AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."

12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.

1 Cor 2:8-9
the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory

Jeremiah 17:10 the Lord says
"I the LORD search the heart, I test the mind. Even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings"

In Revelation 2:23 Jesus says
"I am He who searches the minds and hearts and I will give to each one of you according to your works"

So if Jesus is not God why would he claim to do something in Revelation that Yahweh claimed in Jeremiah?

So is it Yahweh or Jesus who searches hearts and minds?

The only name that can possibly be above all names is the name of YHWH. Even Nons are forced to agree with this one due to the fact that their own theology acknowledges that YHWH is greater in nature than Jesus. This means that Jesus shares the personal name and authority of YHWH, making Him God Himself as no one can be equal to God except God alone.

hope this helps !!!

Let me ask you something Civic, why did God reject Saul as King?

Wasn't it because Saul acted as a King independent and contrary to the rule of God?


This is what you fail to understand about the way the word "Lord" is used in the NT, for God has always intended for his human King to act together with himself in unity and as if they were one Lord over the people and when Saul disobeyed God, he then acted independently of God and as another Lord and King individual of God.


However, Jesus having pasted all tests through his perfect obedience when tempted of the Devil to sin and act independently of God, is therefore in perfect unity with God concerning his rule of the people and therefore he and God are as one Lord and if you understood this correctly, you would also understand what Paul was saying in Romans 10:8-14 and how it fulfills the prophecy of Joel 2..

For if Jesus was ruling by his own agenda and therefore contrary to God's agenda, then there would be over the believers two "kurios" and which would be Jesus and God but being Jesus only rules according to God's single agenda, it is as if he and God are one Lord even though they are not literally one being or person.

In other words, the office of "kurios" is one even thought God as King and Jesus his human representative as King are not literally one being or one person.

The fact is, that Jesus is the mediator of God's rule and being as Kurios over the people and therefore when we confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord (kurios) and believe in our hearts that God has raised him from the dead, we are in this way calling on the name of Yahweh but this doesn't mean that Jesus is Yahweh but only his perfect human agent and mediator who represents God's singular rule.

This is what God wanted with Saul and all of his human kings also, that God and those human kings would be as one single kurios over his people, but unfortunately sin would not always allow this and especially not in the case of the example of King Saul.

 

[Roger Thornhill]

How is it, as you say, the kjv "butchers what is truly stated" in Hebrews 2:16 "For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham."

well?

PICJAG, 101G.

Do you know near the italics mean in the KJV? It means they added words not in the original Greek.

Sometimes it's necessary to make a smooth translation, but they went overboard here. The word for nature is not in the Greek. That's why you won't find anything like it in other translations.

Are you KJV-only?

 

[Yahweh will increase]

How is it, as you say, the kjv "butchers what is truly stated" in Hebrews 2:16 "For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham."

well?

PICJAG, 101G.

Because the Greek words do not say that Jesus took not on himself the nature of Angels but rather the nature of Abraham, go read it in the original and you will see this, for no such thing is stated in Hebrew 2:16 and if you look at the many other translations, this also reveals the error of the KJV likewise.


Go to the Bible Hub interlinear on Hebrews 2:16 and examine the actual Greek words used and what they mean and if you are not stubborn and just want it to read like the KJV, you will see the proof of this.

 

[101G]

Because the Greek words do not say that Jesus took not on himself the nature of Angels but rather the nature of Abraham, go read it in the original and you will see this, for no such thing is stated in Hebrew 2:16 and if you look at the many other translations this also reveals the error of the KJV on this passage.


Go to the Bible Hub interlinear on Hebrews 2:16 and examine the actually Greek words used and what they mean and if you are not stubborn and just want it to read like the KJV, you will see the proof of this.

we said that, as the KJV, see that's your problem, you didn't READ it, because it is confirmed also in Hebrews 2:7 "Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:"

as well as in Philippians 2:7 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:"

so what's the PROBLEM?

PICJAG, 101G.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

we said that, as the KJV, see that's your problem, you didn't READ it, because it is confirmed also in Hebrews 2:7 "Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:"

as well as in Philippians 2:7 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:"

so what's the PROBLEM?

PICJAG, 101G.

ROFLOL, that doesn't make a bit of difference, for my point was, that it doesn't say that Jesus took the form of a human being from being in another form and like you also twist Philippians 2:6 to be saying when it doesn't.

So I will say it once again, in Philippians 2:5-11, Paul never speaks of Jesus as anything other than a human being in regards to his actual ontology and substance but he does speak of him as a human being starting from birth in the form of God and which means that he had God given authority unlike any other man.

This is why when after Jesus emptied himself of acting in his full God given authority, and took the form of a servant, he made himself in the likeness of men.

Notice, Paul never says that Jesus became a man, but only that he took the form of a servant and by doing so, he made himself in the likeness "homoiomai" of other men and when actually he was born in the form of God to eventually rule all nations with a rod of iron.

This was part of the test that God required of Jesus, to empty himself of his full authority in order to fulfill God's greater purpose for him in the form of a servant.

For Jesus could have allowed himself to become the king of Israel and also the whole world at any time, for he was born with this authority to rule not only Israel but all nations with a rod of iron and as per Revelation 12:5 and Psalm 2, but God required of him to lay that down (empty himself of it) in order to fulfill his greater purpose in Jesus becoming a servant and dying for the sins of all men.


Sorry but Hebrew 2:16 does not say that Jesus took the seed or nature of Abraham as though he pre existed first as God.

What it does say, is that he did not help angels but rather the seed of Abraham in his coming and that is all period.

Furthermore in Hebrews 2:17, "it behooved him to be made (passive voice) like unto his brethren" cannot be misrepresented to be saying that Jesus actually made himself like his brethren, "to be made" is in the passive voice" and therefore your argument is worthless on this.


For Jesus didn't send himself to become a human being but God sent him and he was sent right out of God's Mind = Logos, for this is where Jesus was first conceived, and just like all creation except Jesus was conceived in God's mind as the firstborn even though he came after the creation in regards to time.

 

[Roger Thornhill]

even though he came after the creation in regards to time.

How do you reconcile John 1:10? It says that the world came into existence through him. I don't consider κόσμος to be the universe as it did not know him and so this is speaking about people.

But he needed to precede κόσμος in order to be the intermediate agent God uses in bringing them into existence.

I take it you are some sort of Socinian?

 

[aeg4971]

Sorry but God's being consists of much more than just his mind and thinking, but his mind does represent his righteous character that was seen first in his word and this is what was made flesh in Christ Jesus and it began at his birth and was made complete in his obedient life and then through his death and resurrection from the dead and thus "the Logos was made flesh" as per John 1:14.

Like you ,Anti Trnitarian Oneness ,Unitarians, and some Trinitarians) tend to repeat exactly what I stated ,but with different verbiage , only to follow it with corporate and created conditions. that could not exist in God

God the Father having HIs own Logos within Him does not think about having a son one day in the future , but rather in simple terms for a 8th grader , so as the Apostle John says," In the beginning was the Word, the same was in the beginning with God and the Word was God Himself, And in following Augustine then says," Thy today is ETERNITY, therefore didst thou begat the Co- Eternal to whom didst thou saith this day have I begotten thee". Which is of itself and by itself " Form and Image" or Exact Impress/Imprint .

Sorry but as St Thomas says "God mind (infinite intelligible species),divine self understanding/ infinite Wisdom / Word is- divine substance itself belonging to itself within itself hypostatic by itself" .


Notice how you started with "God's being consists of much more than just his mind and thinking", God is absolutely self subsisting being., and all in Him is His essence .


What then is your point to assert "God's being consists of much more than just his mind and thinking" When We understand Ex :3:14 to assert," God prepossess the perfection of All being".




.........Alan

 

[Yahweh will increase]

How do you reconcile John 1:10? It says that the world came into existence through him. I don't consider κόσμος to be the universe as it did not know him and so this is speaking about people.

But he needed to precede κόσμος in order to be the intermediate agent God uses in bringing them into existence.

I take it you are some sort of Socinian?

This is speaking of the fact that God made all things through Christ in his foreknowledge of him coming to redeem and restore God's purpose for creating them all being God saw the darkness that would befall the creation because of sin well in advance of his creating any of it.

For without the future remedy that he would provide in and through Christ Jesus, God in his righteousness, would not have created any of it at all period and this is what John is meaning when he also says in John 1:3 "all things were created through him and without him was not anything created that was created".

By the way, have you ever noticed Paul's reference to Genesis 1:3 in 2 Corinthians 4:6 below?

Genesis 1:3 and God said, "let there be light" and he spoke this at the beginning of the creation.


2 Corinthians 4:6, NASB: "For God, who said, 'Light shall shine out of darkness (Genesis 1:3),' is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ."

I believe that Paul was seeing that the future coming of Jesus was the light of hope in God's foreknowledge by which he created all things and it is the same knowledge through which we are now saved and just as Paul is speaking of in this text.


By the way, my Mother was a Jehovah's witness, but I was not raised by her, for she divorced my Father when I was 5 1/2 years old and the last phone call that I got from her after this was two years later and then she stopped calling us completely.

It wasn't until I was 25 that I searched her out to find out how she was and contacted her and at that time I was a trinitarian but my mother was never responsible for changing my heart about this but only God alone and even though we argued some on the Bible.

 

[Roger Thornhill]

This is speaking of the fact that God made all things through Christ in his foreknowledge of him coming to redeem and restore God's purpose for creating them all being God saw the darkness that would befall the creation because of sin well in advance of his creating any of it.

You are right to be critical of Trinitarians that assert doctrine that is not explicit in Scripture.

But it seems that you are doing this here.

John 1:10 the world was made through him, and the world knew him not. (ASV)

 

[Yahweh will increase]

Like you ,Anti Trnitarian Oneness ,Unitarians, and some Trinitarians) tend to repeat exactly what I stated ,but with different verbiage , only to follow it with corporate and created conditions. that could not exist in God

God the Father having HIs own Logos within Him does not think about having a son one day in the future , but rather in simple terms for a 8th grader , so as the Apostle John says," In the beginning was the Word, the same was in the beginning with God and the Word was God Himself, And in following Augustine then says," Thy today is ETERNITY, therefore didst thou begat the Co- Eternal to whom didst thou saith this day have I begotten thee". Which is of itself and by itself " Form and Image" or Exact Impress/Imprint .

Sorry but as St Thomas says "God mind (infinite intelligible species),divine self understanding/ infinite Wisdom / Word is- divine substance itself belonging to itself within itself hypostatic by itself" .


Notice how you started with "God's being consists of much more than just his mind and thinking", God is absolutely self subsisting being., and all in Him is His essence .


What then is your point to assert "God's being consists of much more than just his mind and thinking" When We understand Ex :3:14 to assert," God prepossess the perfection of All being".




.........Alan

Bunk, for what then is Peter speaking of in 1 Peter 1:20 "who truly was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was in these last days manifested for you"?

Or Paul's words in Romans 8:29, "for those whom he foreknew, them he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many (human) brethren".

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see in these verses that God was thinking of Jesus his human son as the first born among which many other human brethren were to be predestined to be conformed to the image of and which means that Jesus had to be the firstborn in God's mind and Logos also.

It was God's mind the Logos that was made flesh in Jesus Christ and not the actual being of God and which simply means that God's righteous character and thinking (his mind) was duplicated into his human Son from his own righteous mind or Logos.

You could even say, that God's law and which is the whole council of his word was made flesh in Jesus because he obeyed it completely and without sinning even once.

For God duplicated his Logos in his human Son Jesus and then required that Jesus keep what God instilled within him by His Spirit through perfect obedience and through the same temptations that all of us also are tempted with.

 

[Roger Thornhill]

Bunk, for what then is Peter speaking of in 1 Peter 1:20 "who truly was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was in these last days manifested for you"?

Or Paul's words in Romans 8:29, "for those whom he foreknew, them he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many (human) brethren".

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see in these verses that God was thinking of Jesus his human son as the first born among which many other human brethren were to be predestined to be conformed to the image of and which means that Jesus had to be the firstborn in God's mind and Logos also.

It was God's mind the Logos that was made flesh in Jesus Christ and not the actual being of God and which simply means that God's righteous character and thinking (his mind) was duplicated into his human Son from his own righteous mind or Logos.

You could even say, that God's law and which is the whole council of his word was made flesh in Jesus because he obeyed it completely and without sinning even once.

For God duplicated his Logos in his human Son Jesus and then required that Jesus keep what God instilled within him by His Spirit through perfect obedience and through the same temptations that all of us also are tempted with.

There is no doubt that a new creation exists.

But the original creation also exists and κόσμος is part of it at J 1:10. It's not possible for those who don't know him to be part of the new creation and that also applies to those who did not accept him in verse 11.

 

[johnny guitar]

Bunk, for what then is Peter speaking of in 1 Peter 1:20 "who truly was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was in these last days manifested for you"?

Or Paul's words in Romans 8:29, "for those whom he foreknew, them he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many (human) brethren".

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see in these verses that God was thinking of Jesus his human son as the first born among which many other human brethren were to be predestined to be conformed to the image of and which means that Jesus had to be the firstborn in God's mind and Logos also.

It was God's mind the Logos that was made flesh in Jesus Christ and not the actual being of God and which simply means that God's righteous character and thinking (his mind) was duplicated into his human Son from his own righteous mind or Logos.

You could even say, that God's law and which is the whole council of his word was made flesh in Jesus because he obeyed it completely and without sinning even once.

For God duplicated his Logos in his human Son Jesus and then required that Jesus keep what God instilled within him by His Spirit through perfect obedience and through the same temptations that all of us also are tempted with.

God has NO human Son, ONLY a Divine Son.

 

[Roger Thornhill]

God has NO human Son, ONLY a Divine Son.

Adam was a son of God according to the gospels.

 

[johnny guitar]

ROFLOL, that doesn't make a bit of difference, for my point was, that it doesn't say that Jesus took the form of a human being from being in another form and like you also twist Philippians 2:6 to be saying when it doesn't.

So I will say it once again, in Philippians 2:5-11, Paul never speaks of Jesus as anything other than a human being in regards to his actual ontology and substance but he does speak of him as a human being starting from birth in the form of God and which means that he had God given authority unlike any other man.

This is why when after Jesus emptied himself of acting in his full God given authority, and took the form of a servant, he made himself in the likeness of men.

Notice, Paul never says that Jesus became a man, but only that he took the form of a servant and by doing so, he made himself in the likeness "homoiomai" of other men and when actually he was born in the form of God to eventually rule all nations with a rod of iron.

This was part of the test that God required of Jesus, to empty himself of his full authority in order to fulfill God's greater purpose for him in the form of a servant.

For Jesus could have allowed himself to become the king of Israel and also the whole world at any time, for he was born with this authority to rule not only Israel but all nations with a rod of iron and as per Revelation 12:5 and Psalm 2, but God required of him to lay that down (empty himself of it) in order to fulfill his greater purpose in Jesus becoming a servant and dying for the sins of all men.


Sorry but Hebrew 2:16 does not say that Jesus took the seed or nature of Abraham as though he pre existed first as God.

What it does say, is that he did not help angels but rather the seed of Abraham in his coming and that is all period.

Furthermore in Hebrews 2:17, "it behooved him to be made (passive voice) like unto his brethren" cannot be misrepresented to be saying that Jesus actually made himself like his brethren, "to be made" is in the passive voice" and therefore your argument is worthless on this.


For Jesus didn't send himself to become a human being but God sent him and he was sent right out of God's Mind = Logos, for this is where Jesus was first conceived, and just like all creation except Jesus was conceived in God's mind as the firstborn even though he came after the creation in regards to time.

Jesus Christ was BORN The King of Israel. He NEVER, at any time, became or will become, The King of Israel.

 

[johnny guitar]

Adam was a son of God according to the gospels.

But NOT The Divine Son of God.

 

[johnny guitar]

ROFLOL, that doesn't make a bit of difference, for my point was, that it doesn't say that Jesus took the form of a human being from being in another form and like you also twist Philippians 2:6 to be saying when it doesn't.

So I will say it once again, in Philippians 2:5-11, Paul never speaks of Jesus as anything other than a human being in regards to his actual ontology and substance but he does speak of him as a human being starting from birth in the form of God and which means that he had God given authority unlike any other man.

This is why when after Jesus emptied himself of acting in his full God given authority, and took the form of a servant, he made himself in the likeness of men.

Notice, Paul never says that Jesus became a man, but only that he took the form of a servant and by doing so, he made himself in the likeness "homoiomai" of other men and when actually he was born in the form of God to eventually rule all nations with a rod of iron.

This was part of the test that God required of Jesus, to empty himself of his full authority in order to fulfill God's greater purpose for him in the form of a servant.

For Jesus could have allowed himself to become the king of Israel and also the whole world at any time, for he was born with this authority to rule not only Israel but all nations with a rod of iron and as per Revelation 12:5 and Psalm 2, but God required of him to lay that down (empty himself of it) in order to fulfill his greater purpose in Jesus becoming a servant and dying for the sins of all men.


Sorry but Hebrew 2:16 does not say that Jesus took the seed or nature of Abraham as though he pre existed first as God.

What it does say, is that he did not help angels but rather the seed of Abraham in his coming and that is all period.

Furthermore in Hebrews 2:17, "it behooved him to be made (passive voice) like unto his brethren" cannot be misrepresented to be saying that Jesus actually made himself like his brethren, "to be made" is in the passive voice" and therefore your argument is worthless on this.


For Jesus didn't send himself to become a human being but God sent him and he was sent right out of God's Mind = Logos, for this is where Jesus was first conceived, and just like all creation except Jesus was conceived in God's mind as the firstborn even though he came after the creation in regards to time.

The Son was sent by The Father to BECOME a Man.
Jesus was conceived by The Holy Spirit in 4 b. c. and NOT out of God's mind.
ALL men are born in ONE form ONLY: The form of MAN. No such thing as a man born in the form of God.
Asinine assertion.