The foundation of all salvation.

[Sethproton]

It's obviously something we participate in.
But the question you keep dodging (and you really should know better) is where does this faith COME from?

The Bible says it's given to us by God.
Why don't you believe God?

I have agreed many times that faith is also a gift from God. I have actually told you this in response to your posts many times.
I don't expect you to remember everything said to you, but if I have told you the same thing 10 times, it would seem that you would remember that I agree that faith is a gift from God. By it we know He exists and made the world. But that knowledge that comes by faith does not save us.

It is when we entrust ourselves to Jesus that God saves us.

 

[eternomade]

Since that is just grammar and word usage, I wonder why you disagree with basic elements of English usage.

I believe faith is the instrument and Christ is the object. God granting us faith is grace, but so is all of salvation. If salvation involves me at all, its not going to be good news.

The reason we disagree is not because of words used, but the meaning behind those words.

 

[Sethproton]

I believe faith is the instrument and Christ is the object. God granting us faith is grace, but so is all of salvation. If salvation involves me at all, its not going to be good news.

The reason we disagree is not because of words used, but the meaning behind those words.

I understand your doctrinal difference.

 

[Theo1689]

I have agreed many times that faith is also a gift from God. I have actually told you this in response to your posts many times.

Yes, you have said this many times, but you don't actually MEAN what you say.

What you ACTUALLY seem to believe is that God gives us the "ability" to exercise faith, rather than God actually giving us FAITH.

I don't expect you to remember everything said to you, but if I have told you the same thing 10 times,

Based on past experience, my memory is about 100x better than yours.

it would seem that you would remember that I agree that faith is a gift from God. By it we know He exists and made the world. But that knowledge that comes by faith does not save us.

<sigh>
That is NOT "faith", it is KNOWLEDGE.
It would seem that YOU would remember me correcting you on this the past hundred times you've made this false claim.
So maybe you should lose the attitude?

It is when we entrust ourselves to Jesus that God saves us.

And that "entrust ourselves to Jesus" IS the "faith" which is the gift of God.

 

[TomFL]

It's obviously something we participate in.
But the question you keep dodging (and you really should know better) is where does this faith COME from?

The Bible says it's given to us by God.
Why don't you believe God?

The bible says it comes from the word

Romans 10:17 (KJV)
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[Sethproton]

Yes, you have said this many times, but you don't actually MEAN what you say.

What you ACTUALLY seem to believe is that God gives us the "ability" to exercise faith, rather than God actually giving us FAITH.



Based on past experience, my memory is about 100x better than yours.



<sigh>
That is NOT "faith", it is KNOWLEDGE.
It would seem that YOU would remember me correcting you on this the past hundred times you've made this false claim.
So maybe you should lose the attitude?



And that "entrust ourselves to Jesus" IS the "faith" which is the gift of God.

No "entrusting ourselves to" is something we do.
The faith to know that God exists is the gift

 

[Sethproton]

Yes, you have said this many times, but you don't actually MEAN what you say.

What you ACTUALLY seem to believe is that God gives us the "ability" to exercise faith, rather than God actually giving us FAITH.



Based on past experience, my memory is about 100x better than yours.



<sigh>
That is NOT "faith", it is KNOWLEDGE.
It would seem that YOU would remember me correcting you on this the past hundred times you've made this false claim.
So maybe you should lose the attitude?



And that "entrust ourselves to Jesus" IS the "faith" which is the gift of God.

Hebrews 11 says that by faith we understand. Understanding is not salvation.That gift of faith does not save, it gives understanding so that we can entrust ourselves to God

 

[Theo1689]

No "entrusting ourselves to" is something we do.
The faith to know that God exists is the gift

That's what you believe, but that's not what the Bible teaches.
You are the only Bible reader in 2000 years to believe that "the faith to know that God exists is the gift". But you refuse to accept correction, like a lone-ranger Christian.

 

[Theo1689]

Hebrews 11 says that by faith we understand. Understanding is not salvation.

We've been over this 10 million times.
Understanding isn't faith. It's knowledge.
And that's not what Heb. 11 teaches.
No Christian in 2000 years has EVER interpreted it that way.
Until YOU.

There is a truism in Christianity.
If you come up with a novel believe, that NOBODY in the history of Christianity has ever come up with, it is almost certainly wrong.

That gift of faith does not save, it gives understanding so that we can entrust ourselves to God

So faith doesn't save?
Okay, then...
You proved my point for me.

 

[TomFL]

Yes, you have said this many times, but you don't actually MEAN what you say.

What you ACTUALLY seem to believe is that God gives us the "ability" to exercise faith, rather than God actually giving us FAITH.



Based on past experience, my memory is about 100x better than yours.



<sigh>
That is NOT "faith", it is KNOWLEDGE.
It would seem that YOU would remember me correcting you on this the past hundred times you've made this false claim.
So maybe you should lose the attitude?



And that "entrust ourselves to Jesus" IS the "faith" which is the gift of God.

Sorry entrusting yourself requires an act of the will

That is something you must do for yourself another cannot do it for you

 

[ReverendRV]

Sorry entrusting yourself requires an act of the will

That is something you must do for yourself another cannot do it for you

After all this time, don't you know he agrees with that? After all this time I know you agree that we need God's help before we believe...

Grace is to always be understood as God's help going before our belief...

 

[Sethproton]

That's what you believe, but that's not what the Bible teaches.
You are the only Bible reader in 2000 years to believe that "the faith to know that God exists is the gift". But you refuse to accept correction, like a lone-ranger Christian.

I am not the only person in history to understand Hebrews 11 as stating that faith is a gift, the faith to understand truth about God.

 

[Sethproton]

After all this time, don't you know he agrees with that? After all this time I know you agree that we need God's help before we believe...

Grace is to always be understood as God's help going before our belief...

Then why does he keep arguing against it. Why not instead say, "Yes, I agree" and then speak further about faith

 

[Theo1689]

I am not the only person in history to understand Hebrews 11 as stating that faith is a gift, the faith to understand truth about God.

Okay, quote FIVE other Christians who have taught that "knowledge that God EXISTS" comes by "faith". Romans CLEARLY teaches that knowledge of God comes by the witness of CREATION, not by any kind of "faith".

 

[TomFL]

After all this time, don't you know he agrees with that? After all this time I know you agree that we need God's help before we believe...

Grace is to always be understood as God's help going before our belief...

Don't you read context before you post

He stated

"And that "entrust ourselves to Jesus" IS the "faith" which is the gift of God. "

and I replied

Sorry entrusting yourself requires an act of the will

That is something you must do for yourself another cannot do it for you

 

[Sethproton]

Okay, quote FIVE other Christians who have taught that "knowledge that God EXISTS" comes by "faith". Romans CLEARLY teaches that knowledge of God comes by the witness of CREATION, not by any kind of "faith".

The writer of Hebrews is enough for me, "By faith we understand..."
What do you see laid out there in hebrews that we undrstand by faith?

 

[Theo1689]

The writer of Hebrews is enough for me, "By faith we understand..."

Um, no.
That ASSUMES that you are correctly understanding Hebrews, which I suggest you do not. And once again, you miss the point. If your interpretation were correct, we should see HUNDREDS, if not THOUSANDS, of Christians agreeing with your interpretation.

But we find NONE.
That is a HUGE red flag.

Now, let's see...

Does Heb. 11 say, "By faith we understand that God exists"?
Nope. Not at all.

Here is what we find:

Heb. 11:3 By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.

1) It does not say, "by faith we know...". It says "by faith we UNDERSTAND..." Understanding is at a greater level than mere knowledge.

2) The object of our understanding here is "the unverse", not, "that God exists". By faith we understand that the universe was created not only by God, but by the WORD of God". Nothing about "knowing that God exists". We already know that God exists through CREATION (Rom. 2).


Now, I've already explained this to you a number of times, so please do me a favour and save the post, so I don't have to waste my time repeating myself just because you can't be bothered to pay attention.

 

[Sethproton]

Um, no.
That ASSUMES that you are correctly understanding Hebrews, which I suggest you do not. And once again, you miss the point. If your interpretation were correct, we should see HUNDREDS, if not THOUSANDS, of Christians agreeing with your interpretation.

But we find NONE.
That is a HUGE red flag.

Now, let's see...

Does Heb. 11 say, "By faith we understand that God exists"?
Nope. Not at all.

Here is what we find:

Heb. 11:3 By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.

1) It does not say, "by faith we know...". It says "by faith we UNDERSTAND..." Understanding is at a greater level than mere knowledge.

2) The object of our understanding here is "the unverse", not, "that God exists". By faith we understand that the universe was created not only by God, but by the WORD of God". Nothing about "knowing that God exists". We already know that God exists through CREATION (Rom. 2).


Now, I've already explained this to you a number of times, so please do me a favour and save the post, so I don't have to waste my time repeating myself just because you can't be bothered to pay attention.

What kind of doctrine are you pushing that says we can know by faith that God created the world, but that we dont know by faith that God exists?

 

[Manfred]

When you speak of the meaning of faith that is "to entrust yourself to" obviously that is up to you.

Yes, I know you think your faith rest in your own power and not in the power of God as scripture teaches.
That is why your teachings are powerless, except for the false spirit behind them.

At least you have the courage to acknowledge your faith comes from self.

 

[Manfred]

When you speak of the meaning of faith that is "to entrust yourself to" obviously that is up to you.

5 that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

Thank you for showing how you believe that your faith rests in your wisdom and not in the power of God.