Dueteronomy 30:6

[Kampioen]

Why would God be angry at what He supposedly unconditionally pre-caused? Was He mad at His own mistake?

That's an interesting question. If you would like to discuss it, you are free to start your own thread.

Maybe another time.

Refresh my memory... Are you the one who keeps perverting Scripture by arbitrarily adding the word "libertarian" at every third word?

I do often use libertarian because I do assume it when it logically seems so if not proven otherwise. I don't assume it is unconditionally predetermined.

So where is there any room for "ability to obey", when the ONLY thing they can do is evil?

Just because they don't obey doesn't have to mean they couldn't or never had or were unconditionally predetermined to be that way.

 

[fltom]

That's an interesting question. If you would like to discuss it, you are free to start your own thread.



Refresh my memory... Are you the one who keeps perverting Scripture by arbitrarily adding the word "libertarian" at every third word?



So where is there any room for "ability to obey", when the ONLY thing they can do is evil?

Here

Deuteronomy 30:11-16 (ESV)
11 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.
16 If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.

BTW Gen 6:5 does not state the only thing they could don was evil

 

[Ladodgers6]

No problem

but so far all we have your unsupported claim

BTW I do hope you will feel better

Thank you for the kind words, Tom, Egypt is a great example of us being in bondage, and Moses as a type of mediator that led God's people out of Bondage. And taken to the typological promised land of Canaan. The Israelites suffered generation after generation from the iniquity of their fathers and who have died off, correct?

 

[Ladodgers6]

You are very confused

Pelagianism denied that man was affected by the fall

Native depravity is contrary to that

It holds that man inherited a sin nature because of the fall

We're talking about Adam's Sin being imputed to all his progeny, Tom. I can find your post where you posted that you deny that Adam's sin is imputed.

 

[TibiasDad]

LOL...thanks for doing the leg work for me. So, did Pelagius believe in Adam's sin being imputed? Because you do not believe in Native Demerit, correct? So, your belief is Pelagian! You asked & answered your own question.

We are affected by the results of Adam’s sinthorns, greatly increased labor pains, completely tainted by sin in every aspect of our being, and thus, born out of relationship with God, our only source of life, peace, and strength to overcome sin’s beguiling and deceptive power.

We, however, are not judged as guilty for the sin of our father Adam, but only for our own transgressions which will eventually occur for all who reach a cognitive point of knowing the difference between right and wrong. So somewhere around 3-4 years of age for most of us, if not earlier. (Ezekiel 18)

I too hope for you to be feeling better,

Doug

 

[Sethproton]

We're talking about Adam's Sin being imputed to all his progeny, Tom. I can find your post where you posted that you deny that Adam's sin is imputed.

I add my prayers into you feeling better

 

[fltom]

We're talking about Adam's Sin being imputed to all his progeny, Tom. I can find your post where you posted that you deny that Adam's sin is imputed.

We are talking about what Pelagianianism holds

Provisionists as well as Arminians hold to native depravity and that is not Pelagianism

You don't get to redefine terms to suit your liking

 

[fltom]

Thank you for the kind words, Tom, Egypt is a great example of us being in bondage, and Moses as a type of mediator that led God's people out of Bondage. And taken to the typological promised land of Canaan. The Israelites suffered generation after generation from the iniquity of their fathers and who have died off, correct?

There were consequences which fell upon the innocent as well as even today

 

[Ladodgers6]

Native depravity not native demerit

Not guilty of Adam's sin but man inherits a sin nature which makes it impossible to obey the law completely

Ah! Here you go.

 

[fltom]

Ah! Here you go.

So where are you going?

That is not Pelagianism

 

[Ladodgers6]

We are affected by the results of Adam’s sinthorns, greatly increased labor pains, completely tainted by sin in every aspect of our being, and thus, born out of relationship with God, our only source of life, peace, and strength to overcome sin’s beguiling and deceptive power.

Well, obviously I have a lot of questions for you, Doug. Can you expound it for me further? Because I do not want to caricature your position. Because I do not know what you mean by sin-thorns.

We, however, are not judged as guilty for the sin of our father Adam, but only for our own transgressions which will eventually occur for all who reach a cognitive point of knowing the difference between right and wrong. So somewhere around 3-4 years of age for most of us, if not earlier. (Ezekiel 18)

I beg to differ, if we are not guilty in solidarity with Adam, why does the sanction of punishment, that was caused by the One Man's disobedience fall upon all of his progeny? Wouldn't this be unjust of God do so? You are going to say, because all have sinned, but this not sufficient. Because according to you, nobody can sin or be a moral agent, until a certain age. But the curse of death hangs over everyone, excluding what age they are. Babies die before, during and after birth. Even without being under the Law, Paul states. He states this because of the curse for the One Man's disobedience, which the curse upon us all.

I too hope for you to be feeling better,

Doug

This is all I can muster for now. And thanks Doug for the kind words. I really appreciate it, and I also hope you are feeling well too, my friend.

By Grace Alone!

 

[Ladodgers6]

We are talking about what Pelagianianism holds

Provisionists as well as Arminians hold to native depravity and that is not Pelagianism

You don't get to redefine terms to suit your liking

Sorry to not mention this before, thanks for your kind words of feeling better, I appreciate it. Well, Doug gave more meat to the subject, though I need more clarity. You do not hold to the guilt of Adam's sin, that I understand. Here's what I don't understand, if that is so, then why did the curse fall upon all Adam's progeny, even without being under the Law? Where there is no law, there is no knowledge of sin, correct? But people still died, not excluding babies who were not of moral agent yet.

Can you elaborate on this point for me?

 

[fltom]

I've explained it to him before, but we all know this never matters. Jesus told Nicodemus that as OT Israel's Teacher, he should be teaching them the necessity of the New Birth...

Thus TomL is like Nicodemus; and ignorant of the Old Covenant requirement to be Born Again...

Newsflash there was no old covenant requirement to be born again

You just invented that

In case you forgot Jesus was announcing the coming kingdom of God

Mark 1:15 (KJV)
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

it is for that one must be born again

John 3:3 (KJV)
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

not the old covenant

 

[Truth7t7]

Sorry to not mention this before, thanks for your kind words of feeling better, I appreciate it. Well, Doug gave more meat to the subject, though I need more clarity. You do not hold to the guilt of Adam's sin, that I understand. Here's what I don't understand, if that is so, then why did the curse fall upon all Adam's progeny, even without being under the Law? Where there is no law, there is no knowledge of sin, correct? But people still died, not excluding babies who were not of moral agent yet.

Can you elaborate on this point for me?

I fully agree, the sinful curse of Adam & Eve are upon all, every time a man sweats working and a woman is in labor pains, may the world know it's part of the original curse

Genesis 3:16-19AKJV
16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

 

[Sethproton]

Well, obviously I have a lot of questions for you, Doug. Can you expound it for me further? Because I do not want to caricature your position. Because I do not know what you mean by sin-thorns.

I beg to differ, if we are not guilty in solidarity with Adam, why does the sanction of punishment, that was caused by the One Man's disobedience fall upon all of his progeny? Wouldn't this be unjust of God do so? You are going to say, because all have sinned, but this not sufficient. Because according to you, nobody can sin or be a moral agent, until a certain age. But the curse of death hangs over everyone, excluding what age they are. Babies die before, during and after birth. Even without being under the Law, Paul states. He states this because of the curse for the One Man's disobedience, which the curse upon us all.

This is all I can muster for now. And thanks Doug for the kind words. I really appreciate it, and I also hope you are feeling well too, my friend.

By Grace Alone!

Romans 5:12 "death spread to all men because all sinned"

 

[fltom]

Sorry to not mention this before, thanks for your kind words of feeling better, I appreciate it. Well, Doug gave more meat to the subject, though I need more clarity. You do not hold to the guilt of Adam's sin, that I understand. Here's what I don't understand, if that is so, then why did the curse fall upon all Adam's progeny, even without being under the Law? Where there is no law, there is no knowledge of sin, correct? But people still died, not excluding babies who were not of moral agent yet.

Can you elaborate on this point for me?

Spiritually we die when we sin

Romans 7:9 (KJV)
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

James 1:13-15 (KJV)
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Now as We inherit a sin nature it is assured all will sin and die spiritually

Now it can be argued all men place themselves in Adam as a result of evitable sin because of that nature

even when there is no law to be broken sin is not accounted but union with Adam is established and so men die in Adam

Physically Adam brought death into the world and to all his progeny

Babies for example I believe die as a consequence rather than a punishment

David's son for example died as a consequence of David's sin of murder and Adultery

But the baby was not being punished

 

[Ladodgers6]

Spiritually we die when we sin

Romans 7:9 (KJV)
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Tom, you are using passages that don't help your cause, allow me to explain. Even without the "Law between Adam & Moses, but sin is not counted where there is no Law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses (Romans 5:13-14)." So, this passage above you cites the meaning of a time when Paul felt secured, under no conviction of sin. At that time the implication of the law had not yet registered in his consciousness, had not yet become an unbearable burden upon his heart. Paul thought that morally and spiritually he was doing well.

But when the commandment came, that is, when it was brought home to Paul what the Law really demanded was (nothing less than that which is summarized in Mark 12: 29 Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” Paul realized what a great sinner he was. It was then that he died; that is, that was the end of Paul as a self-satisfied, self-secure person.

James 1:13-15 (KJV)
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

None of this has to do with the topic at hand. Everyone is under the curse for One Man's Disobedience, and death is upon all mankind, without exception. You are not understanding that death reigned without the Law between Adam & Moses, and sin is not counted where there is no Law. But Paul is making it crystal clear that the sanction in the stipulation of the Covenant of Works, is death if breached. So, being in Solidarity with Adam as our federal head (Representative of the Human race) he brought the curse of death upon us all.

But God, who is rich is love and mercy made another Covenant, a Covenant of Grace! Where he sends a Second Adam, to redeem us from this curse by becoming a curse, and by fulfilling the Covenant of Works with perfect Law-keeping for us! Which is why Paul makes the contrast between the 2 Adam's in Romans 5. It's by the One Act of Obedience, by the One Man (Last Adam/Christ) that brought Life and Justification. Now Justification is a legal term, meaning rendering one righteous under the Law. So, understanding the comparison in Romans 5 is key.

Now as We inherit a sin nature it is assured all will sin and die spiritually

I'm still unclear what you mean here. Is the human race imputed with Adam's sinful nature? Inherit how and why?

Now it can be argued all men place themselves in Adam as a result of evitable sin because of that nature

So, you are saying, how can one argue the solidarity of mankind in Adam, when they possess a sinful nature from him?

even when there is no law to be broken sin is not accounted but union with Adam is established and so men die in Adam

Okay, your saying people are in UNION with Adam now? You are contradicted yourself; how can they die without sin being accounted, in your view?

Physically Adam brought death into the world and to all his progeny

Okay, again Tom you said in your previous post that Adam's guilt is not passed on to his progeny (Mankind). But you are avoiding the Elephant in the room. How can they suffer the punishment or curse, for Adam's sin? Death is by his hand (he's responsible), correct?

Babies for example I believe die as a consequence rather than a punishment

I beg to differ, babies according to you Native Depravity have to be of Moral Agent (Age) to sin. But the curse of the first Adam's sin rendered a judgement of death for that ONE SIN, so why does it pass to the rest of mankind, if it's not their PERSONAL sin, according to your view?

David's son for example died as a consequence of David's sin of murder and Adultery

This is different from the One Man's Obedience in the Garden Temple!

But the baby was not being punished

Really what is death, if not a curse! Why is the baby under the curse, Tom?

I also want to point something out here. I answer your points line by line. You avoid some of my questions. Just an FYI...

 

[TibiasDad]

Well, obviously I have a lot of questions for you, Doug. Can you expound it for me further? Because I do not want to caricature your position. Because I do not know what you mean by sin-thorns.

I appreciate your not wanting to create a straw man to argue against. Secondly, "sinthorns" is a typo. I was speaking of the effects of Adam's sin upon all mankind that would follow after him. The curses of thorns and weeds and eating by the sweat of the brow and labor pains greatly increased are the temporal consequences of sin that will, and have followed our first parent's sin, passed down as the ongoing effects of their actions. Adam and Eve ruined the playing field for all their offspring.

I beg to differ, if we are not guilty in solidarity with Adam, why does the sanction of punishment, that was caused by the One Man's disobedience fall upon all of his progeny?

You don't have to beg, my friend; you may freely disagree anytime you want!
But seriously, the punishment of the parents will affect their children and grandchildren as well.

A banker that has gained a great deal of wealth, providing his family with privilege and prosperity, is found guilty of various white collar crimes that had bankrupted his clients and padded his own pockets. The consequence of his guilt is that his wealth is confiscated and his assets seized, leaving his family destitute, derided, and disgraced. This is not their guilt, but the guilt of their father, yet they too are suffering from the consequences of his actions without ever being guilty of any wrong doing.

The bankers punishment is prison and fines, as well as compensation for his victims. The family of the banker is not subjected to these punitive measures; no prison, no legal guilt, no lean on their incomes to pay retributions to victims. But they, as a result of the bankers actions, are humiliated, perhaps hungry, and subject to the harassment of the publicity that will follow them the rest of their lives.

Thorns, weeds, sweaty brows and painful labor is the temporal consequence of Adam's sin, the spiritual consequence is separation from God, and thus falling under the domination of our new master, Sin, whose wages is death. "In the day you eat thereof, you will surely die"!

We are condemned personally by our own sinful acts, not those of our father (Ezekiel 18); but Adam and Eve were the whole of humanity when they fell, thus the whole of humanity is now at odds with God and is separated from fellowship with him. The progeny of the father of the human race are necessarily affected by and subject to the results of Adam's actions, and thus are born into separation, born into sinfulness, and thus born to sin. Our own sin condemns us!

Wouldn't this be unjust of God do so? You are going to say, because all have sinned, but this not sufficient. Because according to you, nobody can sin or be a moral agent, until a certain age.

No I did not say "nobody can sin or be a moral agent, until a certain age", I said that we do not become culpable for sin until we reach the point of cognitively knowing the difference between right and wrong. That we can and do sin before this point is not disputed, but God does not hold us accountable for these acts until the knowledge of the Law, ie, what's right and what's wrong,

But the curse of death hangs over everyone, excluding what age they are. Babies die before, during and after birth. Even without being under the Law, Paul states. He states this because of the curse for the One Man's disobedience, which the curse upon us all.

Yes, because we are part of the human race, who are separated from God ad a whole, because the whole of humanity.

This is all I can muster for now. And thanks Doug for the kind words. I really appreciate it, and I also hope you are feeling well too, my friend.

By Grace Alone!

May the Lord, whose wounds grant healing, surround you, uphold you, preserve you and give you peace!


Doug

 

[Truth7t7]

Tom, you are using passages that don't help your cause, allow me to explain. Even without the "Law between Adam & Moses, but sin is not counted where there is no Law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses (Romans 5:13-14)." So, this passage above you cites the meaning of a time when Paul felt secured, under no conviction of sin. At that time the implication of the law had not yet registered in his consciousness, had not yet become an unbearable burden upon his heart. Paul thought that morally and spiritually he was doing well.

But when the commandment came, that is, when it was brought home to Paul what the Law really demanded was (nothing less than that which is summarized in Mark 12: 29 Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” Paul realized what a great sinner he was. It was then that he died; that is, that was the end of Paul as a self-satisfied, self-secure person.


None of this has to do with the topic at hand. Everyone is under the curse for One Man's Disobedience, and death is upon all mankind, without exception. You are not understanding that death reigned without the Law between Adam & Moses, and sin is not counted where there is no Law. But Paul is making it crystal clear that the sanction in the stipulation of the Covenant of Works, is death if breached. So, being in Solidarity with Adam as our federal head (Representative of the Human race) he brought the curse of death upon us all.

But God, who is rich is love and mercy made another Covenant, a Covenant of Grace! Where he sends a Second Adam, to redeem us from this curse by becoming a curse, and by fulfilling the Covenant of Works with perfect Law-keeping for us! Which is why Paul makes the contrast between the 2 Adam's in Romans 5. It's by the One Act of Obedience, by the One Man (Last Adam/Christ) that brought Life and Justification. Now Justification is a legal term, meaning rendering one righteous under the Law. So, understanding the comparison in Romans 5 is key.

I'm still unclear what you mean here. Is the human race imputed with Adam's sinful nature? Inherit how and why?

So, you are saying, how can one argue the solidarity of mankind in Adam, when they possess a sinful nature from him?

Okay, your saying people are in UNION with Adam now? You are contradicted yourself; how can they die without sin being accounted, in your view?

Okay, again Tom you said in your previous post that Adam's guilt is not passed on to his progeny (Mankind). But you are avoiding the Elephant in the room. How can they suffer the punishment or curse, for Adam's sin? Death is by his hand (he's responsible), correct?

I beg to differ, babies according to you Native Depravity have to be of Moral Agent (Age) to sin. But the curse of the first Adam's sin rendered a judgement of death for that ONE SIN, so why does it pass to the rest of mankind, if it's not their PERSONAL sin, according to your view?

This is different from the One Man's Obedience in the Garden Temple!

Really what is death, if not a curse! Why is the baby under the curse, Tom?

I also want to point something out here. I answer your points line by line. You avoid some of my questions. Just an FYI...

You speak of the two commandments, Live God and Neighbor?

These were brought forth as a guidance in enforcement of the 10 commandments, it didnt replace the 10

If you love God you wont commit idolatry,use name in vain etc

If you love your Neighbor, you wont covet his wife or property, steal from hom, bear false witness etc

 

[fltom]

Tom, you are using passages that don't help your cause, allow me to explain. Even without the "Law between Adam & Moses, but sin is not counted where there is no Law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses (Romans 5:13-14)." So, this passage above you cites the meaning of a time when Paul felt secured, under no conviction of sin. At that time the implication of the law had not yet registered in his consciousness, had not yet become an unbearable burden upon his heart. Paul thought that morally and spiritually he was doing well.

But when the commandment came, that is, when it was brought home to Paul what the Law really demanded was (nothing less than that which is summarized in Mark 12: 29 Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” Paul realized what a great sinner he was. It was then that he died; that is, that was the end of Paul as a self-satisfied, self-secure person.


None of this has to do with the topic at hand. Everyone is under the curse for One Man's Disobedience, and death is upon all mankind, without exception. You are not understanding that death reigned without the Law between Adam & Moses, and sin is not counted where there is no Law. But Paul is making it crystal clear that the sanction in the stipulation of the Covenant of Works, is death if breached. So, being in Solidarity with Adam as our federal head (Representative of the Human race) he brought the curse of death upon us all.

Paul stated he was alive without the law. When the law came sin revive and he died



Romans 7:9 (NASB)
9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;

Paul here is speaking of spiritual death. Spiritual death is the result of actual personal sin as James shows

James 1:13-15 (NASB)
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

As for Romans 5 Death reigned because all sinned

Romans 5:12 (NASB)
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

All inherit a sin nature which assures sin and death

All inherit mortality

Judgment is personal

The idea we bear Adam’s guilt is contrary to scripture

Ezek 18:1-4, 19-20; 2Kings 14:6; Deut 24:16; 2Chr 25:4; Jer 31:29-30

The bible is clear

Deuteronomy 1:39 (KJV)
39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

Little Children have no knowledge of Good and evil






o

I'm still unclear what you mean here. Is the human race imputed with Adam's sinful nature? Inherit how and why?

A nature

So, you are saying, how can one argue the solidarity of mankind in Adam, when they possess a sinful nature from him?

Okay, your saying people are in UNION with Adam now? You are contradicted yourself; how can they die without sin being accounted, in your view?

Okay, again Tom you said in your previous post that Adam's guilt is not passed on to his progeny (Mankind). But you are avoiding the Elephant in the room. How can they suffer the punishment or curse, for Adam's sin? Death is by his hand (he's responsible), correct?

I beg to differ, babies according to you Native Depravity have to be of Moral Agent (Age) to sin. But the curse of the first Adam's sin rendered a judgement of death for that ONE SIN, so why does it pass to the rest of mankind, if it's not their PERSONAL sin, according to your view?

This is different from the One Man's Obedience in the Garden Temple!

Really what is death, if not a curse! Why is the baby under the curse, Tom?

I also want to point something out here. I answer your points line by line. You avoid some of my questions. Just an FYI...

I have not contradicted myself I stated the inherited not imputed nature inevitably leads to sin and men prove themselves in Adam by personal action

Physical death is a consequence of Adams sin. Spiritual death and eternal death are results of judgment

You cannot equivocate here

Romans 5 you quote notes

Romans 5:12 (KJV)
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Regarding babies you imagine all who die go to hell?