Furion
Well-known member
Ask yourself why you sin, it may shed some light for you.
Yes, the monolithic boogeyman known as Christian apologists (never met one) is out to make your arguments cry.
Satan and Hell
- Thread starter puddleglum
- Start date
Eightcrackers
Well-known member
Nope... nothing.
What is the mechanism that connects human sin to the introduction of cancer - did Yahweh cause it, or did he design the system to cause it?
An apologist is anybody that offers a reasoned defence for their viewpoint.
(Or at least, such as in the case of Christianity, attempts to do so.)
Furion
Well-known member
It was worth a shot. Perhaps your spirit is dead to God?
Fixed it for you.
It appears you believe an apologist is anyone.
Eightcrackers
Well-known member
Quotemining is not fixing.
Especially given that what you mined is literal inches above this misrepresentation.
Furion
Well-known member
According to you an apologist is anyone...who gives an opinion.
Sorry you are butthurt over your own definition.
Eightcrackers
Well-known member
Here is what I actually said, in full:
A reasoned defence is not a mere opinion.
SteveB
Well-known member
Well, just as long as you think you know better than hundreds/thousands of pastors, teachers, bible academics who are following Jesus over the past two millennia, who cares what the truth actually is!How have you concluded that from my post? What you mean is that I refuse to swallow your nonsense unquestioningly. And I never will, Steve. I will always question what you say, in part because you have been proven wrong so often.
Of course they do. Christians have been pedalling this nonsense for millenia.
Are you aware the word "Lucifer" does not appear in most Bibles? See for yourself:
Isaiah 14:12 - Downfall of the King of Babylon
How you have fallen from heaven, O day star, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the ground, O destroyer of nations.biblehub.com
How do you explain that Steve?
So did you already know Bibles do not mention Lucifer? Why did you even mention him when modern translations omit him altogether?
Just tell me how you have determined that Isaiah 14 is about Lucifer.
A lot - all but the Christian evangelicals - agree with me. Include most of the web site you found!
Did you read those links? From the first:
Traditionally, the king of Babylon in Isaiah 14 was interpreted as being Satan, with particular application of verses 12–14 to his fall from heaven. This interpretation has lost traction among scholars in the past two centuries with the rise of different approaches to Scripture.
From the second:
The word "Satan" (H7854) does not even appear anywhere in the books of Isaiah or Ezekiel....Since the word "Satan" never appears in the entire book of Isaiah, this verse is open to non-Satan interpretation. E.g., Ellicott:
And
I would suggest that the concepts found in these chapters do not lend themselves to an interpretation that suggests Satan, but instead to the people that are specifically described, which is the king of Babylon and the king of Tyre.
From the third:
Ezekiel refers to an arrogant human ruler. The ruler in this passage exalts himself in pride and is cast down; the casting down is more explicit in the oracle earlier in the chapter (28:2-10).
Only the fourth, from "Enduring word", supports your view. This is an evangelical web site, as their mission statement makes clear, starting "Enduring Word exists to promote the work of Christian discipleship and evangelism worldwide..." I fully accept that evangelical Christians will agree with you. But those experts you mentioned, they agree with me, Steve.
And apparently you could not be bothered to read the web sites you presented as supporting your position. At least I was prepared to do that!
The evidence points to that being more the case for you Steve. I am the one who was prepared to read those four linked web pages.
As I showed in post #55, this is about a huge sea monster, a dragon with seven heads, the Leviathan. It is not about a snake.
You seem to be describing yourself. You are so sure you are right, you did not even bother to read those links.
I decided to read them.
I guess the question now is whether you will. Or do you think you know it all already?
You might like to look up what "hope" and "disappoint" actually mean. It makes no sense to hope for a disappointment.
I hope you will read the web pages you linked to. I am worried you will disappoint me and refuse to do so. Do you see how it works?
You have presented your opinion that Revelation refers to the serpent in Genesis. No more than that.
I think you are wrong, and in an earlier post made clear why that is.
You enjoy your myopic opinion.
I have a novel idea though...
Write a book, and then publish it for distribution throughout the entire world.
If you prove you're right, just imagine all those people whom you'll save from their eternity in paradise.
I am more interested in what the scholars - experts in Hebrew and ancient history - believe, than what hundreds/thousands of pastors, teachers, bible academics have been told to believe.
If it helps you to justify your beliefs, go ahead and call it that. It is also the belief of most of the web sites you linked to.
Furion
Well-known member
puddleglum
Well-known member
The word appears in all translations but it isn't always translated the same.
One approach is to simply not believe that Scripture is inspired by God. That affects how scholars interpret it.
The first ten verses of chapter 28 are addressed to the prince of Tyre and clearly refer to the human ruler. Beginning at verse 10 God speaks to the king of Tyre and God says things to him, such as that he was in Eden and that he was a cherub, that cannot be true of any human.
All lives belong to God so he determines when they end. He has delegated some of this authority to humans. For example he has authorized capital punishment as the penalty for murder. But otherwise anyone who kills another person is usurping a privilege that belongs only to God.
In addition some who are raised will be condemned to spend eternity in the lake of fire.
All death and all diseases such as cancer are the result of human sin. That is why all of us eventually die.
Wow, that is some impressive double talk.
The word "lucifer" does not appear in most translations. That is a simple fact.
Absolutely. If you just blindly believe it says what Christianity claims it says, you will miss the real meaning - what the author actually meant. Scholars in general do not do that, and naturally that affects how they interpret it.
The word translated as "Prince" in verse 2 is more often translated as leader. The taunt is directed to the King of Tyre, who was also the leader. As the text clearly states.
So in your view, is it morally acceptable for God to kill whoever he likes? Is it okay if he tortures people? I am curious how much you are willing to allow God.
Ah, so you see killing people as a privilege .
I guess God has the privilege of torturing them.
So when a kid get cancer, God just says, the kid is sinful, so turns a blind eye? Or because other humans are sinful?
Ridiculous. This is what the ancients thought because God wasn't just a religion or a belief to them. In their utter ignorance of how reality worked God became their science, their way of attempting to manipulate and interpret events. Do you want a good crop next year? Sacrifice a bushel of grain on the alter. Cattle diseased? God is angry, cut the throat of a goat and burn it on the alter. Something bad happen to you or your nation? You have misbehaved. Change the way you act and God will give you success in battle or politics or whatever. Volcano? Earthquake? Tsunami? Just pray. God may stop it if you beseech Him sincerely enough. It was their science, their ignorant relationship to their world, their futile attempts to do what we do today with with great success using science. They were afraid so they invented terribly ignorant methods to manipulate the world around them to their favor.
We know know about soil treatment for crop yields now. We know about sanitation, germ theory, and disease control, We know when earthquake and tsunami are on the way. God never showed us any of this. For those of you that still adhere to it, He left you nothing but an ancient and incorrect view of reality where you have to wait for anything that you believe to be manifest only after you die. So now, for awhile, until you die too, you get to play arm-chair evangelist in the here and now, telling us all how this hell awaits us.
We even know that those without sin suffer and die, something your God has zero answer for.
Why do you call it a wager?
You know my view of this life is that it is a testing and perfecting ground for God to know all men's hearts (and to perfect them even men that claim to be believers) that determines their eternal destination. This life is temporary and God uses the fiery trials of this life to weed out those who do not want to love and share eternity with him. He doesn't want a replay of the rebellion that happened in the spiritual realm with Satan and the angels that followed him. Is this wrong of God?
Perhaps God had plans to test Job's faith and he used Satan to forward His purposes for Job's life. Job had led a sheltered, properous life. God had kept adversity from touching Job as Satan had pointed out to God “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Have you not put a fence around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But stretch out your hand now, and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.” Job 1:9
What do you think Satan is doing when he is “... going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it."? He is looking for souls to destroy. He is already at work in the world doing the same things to others, like and unlike Job, on the earth. That is what Satan does. He would have likely already done his worst Job if God hadn't put a fence of protection around Job and all his possessions.
I reread the chapters in Job and my conclusion now is similar to what it was earlier in this thread. Job went through his worst fear. Job 3:25 He didn't have full knowledge of what was going on. In the end, he received his desire to speak to God and present his innocence before God and in effect judged his maker as unjust in punishing the innocent. When in reality, Job was not being punished for his sins as his three friends had accused him of but was being tested by God and was found to be faithful.
Satan was the one who brought the misery upon Job not God. God took the fence away from his beloved servant, Job and Satan, the god of this world, used his authority to take full advantage of it in his efforts to provoke Job to curse God.
God wants us (Christians) to trust him even if we don't understand the entire picture of what is going on in our lives. As a young Christian, my goal was to become a mature. My thoughts at the time were that I would know when I was mature by how I handled tough situations in my life. If I could trust in God's goodness and love for me during those difficult times of wandering in darkness when I didn't know what to do or where I was going that in the end I would get through to a bright, open, peaceful place on the other side. I wanted to get through those times with a song of praise in my heart showing my faith in God through adversity. The dark nights of the soul are to perfect us (at least that is one reason.)
1 Corinthians 10: 13 No testing has overtaken you that is not common to everyone. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tested beyond your strength, but with the testing he will also provide the way out so that you may be able to endure it.
Eightcrackers
Well-known member
"I didn't rape her; I just got out of the way when I heard that the rapist wanted to do it!"
Do you really think that this leaves your god blamless?
Really?
Who go to hell forever, right?
"Suffer my tests... and if I think you failed, suffer some more. Forever."
Kill Satan.
Problem solved.
If the person I trusted most in the world watched me get hit by a car when they could have prevented it, and then told me that I couldn't see "the whole picture", that trust would be gone.
Forgive me, but this is utterly dismal - "I want to keep loving him no matter what he watches me go through that he could prevent"?
This is worse than Stockholm Syndrome, and worse than battered spouse syndrome.
"I am not hurting you any more than you can stand"
said the torturer to his victim, who was writhing and howling in agony.
Caroljeen seems to have a bit of a "unique" understanding of God which doesnt fit entirely with christian belief of God.
Dizerner
Well-known member
There seems to be a temporary form of hell until the day it's all just dumped into the lake of fire at the end.
What would that be?
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Simple - Humans, just like Adam and Eve toss God under the Bus and jump on board with SATAN, so since satan is their Lord, the get to share his fate with him - By design.
Your opinion about "God's Morals" doesn't mean spit.
Eightcrackers
Well-known member
So unrepentant humans go to hell because it was designed into the system by Yahweh?
If so, what's all this nonsense about hell "not having been designed for humans"?
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
There was no "Wager".
It wasn't. It was designed to be for satan and his angels. but when Humans sided with satan against God, they came under the same condemnation. HEY!! this ain't "Brain Surgery", y'all!!!!