Did Jesus really fulfill all of the laws???

You were given the place to study at your delight. What's wrong? You don't want to interact personally with me?
 
Jewjitzu said:
Yep, faith involves action. Otherwise is just like the demons do.
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Faith alone, or trust alone, PRECEDES any action. Action alone without trusting God is empty works. And based on the precedent in scripture, it was Abraham’s trust that established righteousness BEFORE he had been circumcised, before the requirements of the Mosaic law WERE ADDED.

You cannot get around that.

What is that faith placed in? Mythical stories, superstitions, sinner’s prayer? No, it is placed in a celestial Messiah revealed by an inner moral consciousness.

Look up at the stars, scripture records, because the celestial Messiah is all around us, and in us, raising up a single family (“seed”) for eternity.

Outward material, sensual, idolatrous rituals have no efficacy for salvation. They are mere symbols at best representing abstract concepts or ideas pertaining to a celestial Messiah indwelling the human heart and soul.

It is an idolatrous generation who actually expects outward bodily rituals to be effective in pleasing a Good God. He could care less about foreskins and blood of animals, or whether you eat pork or not.

Jewjitzu said:
For I have chosen him, so that he will command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just, in order that the LORD may bring upon Abraham what He has promised.”


No, Abraham was commanded to leave his home to be blessed. He was righteous as a result of being obedient and acting.


Wrong as shown above.


Wrong as shown above. Action.


Yep, a faith acted out.
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docphin5 said:
Faith alone, or trust alone, PRECEDES any action.
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And is not proven without action. Faith without works is dead. ;)#

docphin5 said:
Action alone without trusting God is empty works. And based on the precedent in scripture, it was Abraham’s trust that established righteousness BEFORE he had been circumcised, before the requirements of the Mosaic law WERE ADDED.
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Abraham's first act was to be obedient and leave his home in obedience to God, Genesis 12:4. He believed and acted. Sorry, but you're debunked yet again.

docphin5 said:
You cannot get around that.
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I just did.

docphin5 said:
What is that faith placed in? Mythical stories, superstitions, sinner’s prayer? No, it is placed in a celestial Messiah revealed by an inner moral consciousness.
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Nope. That's just your gnosticsm shinning thru.

docphin5 said:
Look up at the stars, scripture records, because the celestial Messiah is all around us, and in us, raising up a single family (“seed”) for eternity.
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Rotfl...

docphin5 said:
Outward material, sensual, idolatrous rituals have no efficacy for salvation. They are mere symbols at best representing anstract concepts or ideas pertaining to a celestial Messiah indwelling the human heart and soul.
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You read too much gnostic comics.
 
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American Gothic said:
at this point I'm assuming no one here actually Knows anything definitive
very Cult like behavior, maybe even a bit Supremacist in nature
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I know talking to some posters is like talking to a wall, but sometimes good can be found in contrasting ideas, demonstrating the weaknesses and error held by others. That is why I discuss things with people I have little chance of persuading. If nothing else it reaffirms or serves to fine tune my own position. When the discussion begins repeating itself, then I usually move on to something else.
 
American Gothic said:
at this point I'm assuming no one here actually Knows anything definitive
very Cult like behavior, maybe even a bit Supremacist in nature
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At this point you were given the answer. 613 commandments and 7 Rabbinical. I believe you got a link as well.

And even before your questioning you were asked about Jesus' borrowed righteousness. If you can't answer, just say so. I know it's a hole in your dogma.
 
docphin5 said:
I know talking to some posters is like talking to a wall, but sometimes good can be found in contrasting ideas, demonstrating the weaknesses and error held by others. That is why I discuss things with people I have little chance of persuading. If nothing else it reaffirms or serves to fine tune my own position.
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I agree ?

AG is afraid to deal with me, I guess.
 
American Gothic said:
I agree with this
even tho we have different views on Qumran/DSS etc
I learned some things thru our engagements
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Like Jesus not fulfilling all of the commandments on his own?

Why didn't God the Father redeem and consecrate Jesus according to the law, if they were truly related as you teach? Why didn't God circumcise Jesus if He was truly his Father?
 
American Gothic said:
I agree with this
even tho we have different views on Qumran/DSS etc
I learned some things thru our engagements
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That probably is how it has always been done, people exchanging ideas, weeding out the worst ideas and assimilating the best ideas. I don’t believe the so-called “prophets” sat around alone chanting until all these ideas popped into their head, or until an invisible force began moving the feather in their hand, like a Ouija board. For example, Noah’s flood was circulating a thousand years earlier as the epic of Gilgamesh. Therefore, “Moses” was not the first to write it down, he assimilated it.
 
docphin5 said:
Noah’s flood was circulating a thousand years earlier as the epic of Gilgamesh. Therefore, “Moses” was not the first to write it down, he assimilated it.
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Epic of G is not a story about the Flood to my understanding - only has a brief mention of it (?)
I view writings going back to Adam's time, and certainly Moses had materials to draw on
 
American Gothic said:
I consider OH and Rachel CARM friends
Eve as well

JuJu I just consider to be a Tool
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Juju is a lot too literal for me, but I can work against it to make a point.

On my scale of taking the Bible literally from 1 to 10, Juju is a 10, Christian orthodoxy is about an 8, the Essenes were about a 5, Paul about a 3, Philo and I about a 2, roughly.

The Essenes and Paul may have been a four and Peter a 5 or 6. Pharisees would have been a 9, at least.

The point is that it is degrees of literalness or its antithesis allegorizing scripture. The more orthodox, the more literal it becomes, until it becomes religious fundamentalism. The more abstract it becomes the further it dissolves into nothing. Somewhere is a happy median, IMO.
 
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American Gothic said:
Epic of G is not a story about the Flood to my understanding - only has a brief mention of it (?)
I view writings going back to Adam's time, and certainly Moses had materials to draw on
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The oldest writings are Egyptian heiroglyphs and Sumerian cuneiform, maybe the writings from the Indie valley civilization (don’t know much about them). There is no written language older than those three that I am aware of. So it would be logical that an exiled Jew in Babylonia wrote most of the first five books derived from the most ancient writings available (and their interpretations/meanings), that is, sumerian cuneiform or Egyptian heiroglyphs. I read that Deuteronomy may have been based on Hebrew codes or laws existing before the Babylonian exile, maybe when there was a king David ruling over desert tribes. one interesting feature of semitic religion versus those around them is that semitic theology made men into gods (eg., Moses, Elijah, etc.) whereas, other religions made gods into men (Eg., Osiris).
 
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docphin5 said:
Yes, because the whole law is summed up as “love your neighbor”.

“For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” (Gal 5:14)

”but you shall love your neighbor as yourself” (Lev 19:18)
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That's Paul's summary of the Law. He left out the part about loving the Lord.

According to Jesus, the Law was based on not one, but TWO commandments:

And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.” (Matthew 22:37-40)

That doesn't mean the other laws have been abrogated. Rather, obeying the Law fulfills the 2 commandments of "Love God" and "love your neighbor". Because if you love God, you will do what God's Law tells you to do for God. And if you love your neighbor, you will do what God's Law tells you to do for your neighbor.
 
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