YHWH PIERCED = JESUS PIERCED

[Yahweh will increase]

They will look upon Me: Comparing Zechariah 12:10 with Zechariah 12:1 and 12:3 (Thus says the LORD … says the LORD) makes it clear that the Me they look upon is the LORD God - Yahweh - Himself. This is astounding and wonderful evidence that Jesus the piercedOne is God, and that Yahweh is the Triune God.

B. "They shall look on Me whom they have pierced."
1. In Psalm 22 it was predicted, "They pierced My hands and My feet."
2. Their looking is in acceptance and recognition.
a. The veil that has been over their eyes will be lifted.
b. They will recognize the mistake they made.
c. They will receive Jesus as their Messiah.
3. Their looking will bring repentance.
a. "They shall mourn for Him."
b. As one would mourn for a firstborn son that was killed.
C. "The Lord will open to them a fountain for sin and uncleanness."
1. Their recognition, repentance and receiving of Jesus as their Messiah will usher in a new age.

I figured I best add this in my finish with you on this passage.

You will note that none of the NT translations of John 19:37 quote the verse as "they will look upon me whom they have pierced" but rather "they will look upon the one whom they pierced or him whom they have pierced".

Furthermore, I never denied that the passage is about Jesus being pierced but only argued that if it is to be translated as "me whom they pierced" there are two persons and beings being spoken of and not just one, otherwise the word "him" revealing another other than Yahweh would not have been used in the text at all.

Good bye TW

 

[Yahweh will increase]

Red Herring: Attempting to redirect the argument to another issue to which the person doing the redirecting can better respond. While it is similar to the avoiding the issue fallacy, the red herring is a deliberate diversion of attention with the intention of trying to abandon the original argument.


Now you claim omniscience? How do you know that I am not of the Spirit?

Total nonsense. Atonement was the result of Jesus' death, not that He was pierced. If the piercing was the requirement, why did Jesus repeatedly speak of His death? Note we have no Gospel recording of Jesus speaking of being pierced.

Does the text read?

Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes and be pierced, and after three days rise again.

1 Corinthians 15:3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ was pierced for our sins according to the Scriptures,

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also was pierced or sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been pierced to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

1 Thessalonians 5:10 who was pierced for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that one is pierced for his friends.

Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ was pierced for us.

I figured I best add this in my finish with you on this passage.

You will note that none of the NT translations of John 19:37 quote the verse as "they will look upon me whom they have pierced" but rather "they will look upon the one whom they pierced or him whom they have pierced".

Furthermore, I never denied that the passage is about Jesus being pierced but only argued that if it is to be translated as "me whom they pierced" there are two persons and beings being spoken of and not just one, otherwise the word "him" revealing another other than Yahweh would not have been used in the text at all.

Good bye TW

 

[johnny guitar]

You trins and your red herring belly aching. "Now you claim omniscience? How do you know" "that I am deliberately diverting your attention with the intention of trying to abandon the original argument"?

I firmly believe everything I am telling you about Zechariah 12:10, for the Father was also pierced in his soul by the death of his Son for our sins and just like Mary was also and I not only believe this but know it to be a fact also.


Read your Bible, for Jesus said that I would know false prophets with their sheep's clothing of phony works by their fruit and if you read the contexts in the synoptics and compare all of what he said in them about a tree being known by its fruit, you will see that Jesus was tying this all together to what is revealed in the false prophets words.

For his words don't line up with the truth of the scriptures and when Jesus said "you will know them by their fruit" he was speaking this only to those who would have the Spirit's discernment to know the difference between the truth of God's word and that which is in error like what you teach and believe.

Read your Bible, it is called Holy Spirit discernment just like what Jesus and Peter and Paul and all of the genuine disciples had.


I am not going to keep arguing with you about this, for it really makes no difference to me that you believe what you do or not, but the fact remains that Jesus would not have been sent by God to be pierced in the first place if our sin didn't need to be atoned for and when God had to let his Son be pierced for our sins, you better believe his soul was also pierced because of it just like it was for Mary also.

By the way, your avatar fits you well, a figure in black holding up a dim light and it reminds me well of what Paul warned of in 2 Corinthians 11, that Satan's ministers transform themselves into messengers of light when actually they are of the darkness.

Also and once again, there are translations that say it like this "they will look upon him whom they pierced and mourn for him" and which makes your cherry picked trin biased translations subject to debate in the first place.


Now I have said all I need to and am therefore not going to go any further with you on this, for it is one of the weakest arguments that trins present to attempt to support their deception with anyhow.

God The Son came to the earth as MAN to be pierced, just as Zechariah 12:10 states.

 

[johnny guitar]

I figured I best add this in my finish with you on this passage.

You will note that none of the NT translations of John 19:37 quote the verse as "they will look upon me whom they have pierced" but rather "they will look upon the one whom they pierced or him whom they have pierced".

Furthermore, I never denied that the passage is about Jesus being pierced but only argued that if it is to be translated as "me whom they pierced" there are two persons and beings being spoken of and not just one, otherwise the word "him" revealing another other than Yahweh would not have been used in the text at all.

Good bye TW

There is NO another other than Yahweh who was pierced.

 

[Our Lord's God]

God The Son came to the earth as MAN to be pierced, just as Zechariah 12:10 states.

Except Zechariah 12:10 states no such thing.

 

[johnny guitar]

Except Zechariah 12:10 states no such thing.

YHWH speaking: "They shall look upon ME, whom they have pierced".
Case closed.

 

[Towerwatchman]

You trins and your red herring belly aching. "Now you claim omniscience? How do you know" "that I am deliberately diverting your attention with the intention of trying to abandon the original argument"?

Your posted red herrings, also see below.

I firmly believe everything I am telling you about Zechariah 12:10, for the Father was also pierced in his soul by the death of his Son for our sins and just like Mary was also and I not only believe this but know it to be a fact also.

Your belief in X does not equate to X being true. Post your scriptural support for this assumption. Note it has to tie to Zech 12:10

Read your Bible, for Jesus said that I would know false prophets with their sheep's clothing of phony works by their fruit and if you read the contexts in the synoptics and compare all of what he said in them about a tree being known by its fruit, you will see that Jesus was tying this all together to what is revealed in the false prophets words.

For his words don't line up with the truth of the scriptures and when Jesus said "you will know them by their fruit" he was speaking this only to those who would have the Spirit's discernment to know the difference between the truth of God's word and that which is in error like what you teach and believe.

Read your Bible, it is called Holy Spirit discernment just like what Jesus and Peter and Paul and all of the genuine disciples had.

Now practice what you preach. Line up your words with the truth of Scripture. In other words =chapter and verse.

I am not going to keep arguing with you about this, for it really makes no difference to me that you believe what you do or not, but the fact remains that Jesus would not have been sent by God to be pierced in the first place if our sin didn't need to be atoned for and when God had to let his Son be pierced for our sins, you better believe his soul was also pierced because of it just like it was for Mary also.

You're saying that atonement was made possible by Jesus being pierced vs His death.

By the way, your avatar fits you well, a figure in black holding up a dim light and it reminds me well of what Paul warned of in 2 Corinthians 11, that Satan's ministers transform themselves into messengers of light when actually they are of the darkness.

ad hominem attack.

Its simply attacking the person making the argument rather than the argument itself when the attack on the person is completely irrelevant to the argument the person is making. This is usually the last position of ignorance knowing that it cannot compete with the intelligence and character of X, it is usually a sign of desperation on the part of the one insulting. [Logically Fallacious]

Also and once again, there are translations that say it like this "they will look upon him whom they pierced and mourn for him" and which makes your cherry picked trin biased translations subject to debate in the first place.

And? Does John cite Zech 12:10 in those translations? That is what matters.

Now I have said all I need to and am therefore not going to go any further with you on this, for it is one of the weakest arguments that trins present to attempt to support their deception with anyhow.

Weak or not, you have not refuted anything. And if weak it shows how poor your argument is. Simply posted relative and subjective red herrings.

 

[Towerwatchman]

Why are you so utterly blind to your problem here?



Did you forget to mention the manuscript variants?

Did you forget to mention that John's quote of the verse is different than your version of the verse?

Did you forget to mention the translation problem here concerning et asher?

Did you forget to post your support?

 

[Towerwatchman]

Except Zechariah 12:10 states no such thing.

True. But John is.
Jn 19:34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. 35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe. 36 For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, “Not one of His bones shall be broken.” 37 And again another Scripture says, “They shall look on Him whom they pierced.”

 

[Towerwatchman]

I figured I best add this in my finish with you on this passage.

You will note that none of the NT translations of John 19:37 quote the verse as "they will look upon me whom they have pierced" but rather "they will look upon the one whom they pierced or him whom they have pierced".

Furthermore, I never denied that the passage is about Jesus being pierced but only argued that if it is to be translated as "me whom they pierced" there are two persons and beings being spoken of and not just one, otherwise the word "him" revealing another other than Yahweh would not have been used in the text at all.

Good bye TW

You undermine your own faith. Note in Matthew, Luke and John the rooster crows once, in Mark the rooster crows twice. Note if your argument is applicable to Scripture then Scripture is flawed.

The reason why the accounts are not 100% harmonized is that ancient historians are more interested in getting the gist of the story than in minute details. Note if the rooster crowed once or twice it does not change the fact that Peter denied Jesus.

Zech being in the first person and John citing Zech using the third person does not change the fact = that John is stating that Jesus being pierced is the fulfillment of the prophecy found in Zech 12:10.

 

[Towerwatchman]

Except Zechariah 12:10 states no such thing.

But the Gospel of John does.

 

[Our Lord's God]

You undermine your own faith. Note in Matthew, Luke and John the rooster crows once, in Mark the rooster crows twice. Note if your argument is applicable to Scripture then Scripture is flawed.

The reason why the accounts are not 100% harmonized is that ancient historians are more interested in getting the gist of the story than in minute details. Note if the rooster crowed once or twice it does not change the fact that Peter denied Jesus.

Zech being in the first person and John citing Zech using the third person does not change the fact = that John is stating that Jesus being pierced is the fulfillment of the prophecy found in Zech 12:10.

Please explain why you have God saying "look upon ME" whom they pierced and will mourn for HIM"

 

[Towerwatchman]

Please explain why you have God saying "look upon ME" whom they pierced and will mourn for HIM"

Zec 12:10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

Who is “Me” in the text? [First person singular]. Vs 1 identifies who is speaking, ‘Thus says the Lord. Lord translates from “YHWH”.

Zec12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD [YHWH], who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth and forms the spirit of man within him:

 

[Yahweh will increase]

Your posted red herrings, also see below.

Your belief in X does not equate to X being true. Post your scriptural support for this assumption. Note it has to tie to Zech 12:10

Now practice what you preach. Line up your words with the truth of Scripture. In other words =chapter and verse.

You're saying that atonement was made possible by Jesus being pierced vs His death.

ad hominem attack.

Its simply attacking the person making the argument rather than the argument itself when the attack on the person is completely irrelevant to the argument the person is making. This is usually the last position of ignorance knowing that it cannot compete with the intelligence and character of X, it is usually a sign of desperation on the part of the one insulting. [Logically Fallacious]

And? Does John cite Zech 12:10 in those translations? That is what matters.

Weak or not, you have not refuted anything. And if weak it shows how poor your argument is. Simply posted relative and subjective red herrings.

Red Herring, Red Herring, now then, you practice what you preach and get in line with this verse right from the mouth of Jesus himself, John 17:3, "This is Eternal life, that they might know you (Father) The Only True God and Jesus the Christ whom you have sent", for your belief in X doesn't equate to X being true either dude.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

You undermine your own faith. Note in Matthew, Luke and John the rooster crows once, in Mark the rooster crows twice. Note if your argument is applicable to Scripture then Scripture is flawed.

The reason why the accounts are not 100% harmonized is that ancient historians are more interested in getting the gist of the story than in minute details. Note if the rooster crowed once or twice it does not change the fact that Peter denied Jesus.

Zech being in the first person and John citing Zech using the third person does not change the fact = that John is stating that Jesus being pierced is the fulfillment of the prophecy found in Zech 12:10.

LOL, why then you go right ahead and believe that then dude, for it matters nothing to me whether or not you choose to believe in the truth, for that is your problem.

If you had no knowledge of the Bible or very little, I would have more compassion for you, but because you say that you see when you are as blind as a bat, I can't really have any empathy for you.

For it is obvious that you have spent much time adulterating the scriptures in order to excuse and explain away the many contradiction that are in them against your doctrine and to the point that you are totally incapable of being honest about them and there are plenty of them also.

So we are finished here.

 

[Towerwatchman]

Red Herring, Red Herring, now then, you practice what you preach and get in line with this verse right from the mouth of Jesus himself, John 17:3, "This is Eternal life, that they might know you (Father) The Only True God and Jesus the Christ whom you have sent", for your belief in X doesn't equate to X being true either dude.

Proper scholarship requires you to point out and explain the red herring. Notice the hypocrisy and duplicity you post a red herring [redirect the conversation to John 17:3].

 

[Towerwatchman]

LOL, why then you go right ahead and believe that then dude, for it matters nothing to me whether or not you choose to believe in the truth, for that is your problem.

If you had no knowledge of the Bible or very little, I would have more compassion for you, but because you say that you see when you are as blind as a bat, I can't really have any empathy for you.

For it is obvious that you have spent much time adulterating the scriptures in order to excuse and explain away the many contradiction that are in them against your doctrine and to the point that you are totally incapable of being honest about them and there are plenty of them also.

So we are finished here.

Grow up.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

Proper scholarship requires you to point out and explain the red herring. Notice the hypocrisy and duplicity you post a red herring [redirect the conversation to John 17:3].

You and your supposed "proper scholarship".

You better believe I will keep bringing up John 17:3, because unlike Zechariah 12:10, John 17:3 cannot be translated in a way that can work with your false doctrine and neither can the context and precedent set in 1 John 1:1-3 coupled with 1 John 5:20 either.

Very clearly in both contexts their are two referents being spoken of, The Father as The Only True God and the Son whom he sent and who John specifically calls "The Eternal Life that was with the Father" and nowhere does John ever call Jesus him who is true or the True God in either.

In fact he said this instead "we are in him who is true, even in HIs (Him that is True) His - Son" and which again reveals two referents and not just one.

As I have shown, Zechariah 12:10 is translated as "and they shall look at him who they pierced and mourn for him" and the NT verifies this as the correct translation also being John quoted it that way.


That is why I said your argument on Zechariah 12:10 is a weak one at best but the argument from John 17:3 and 1 John 1:1-3 coupled with the rest of the context of 1 John 5:20 isn't weak but very powerful.

Indeed it pulls the guts right out of any argument you could ever make in support of your false doctrines about the Nature of God and Christ.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

Grow up.

How arrogant but you will soon eat those words and I would never tell you to grow up, for you are full grown in your false doctrine and very soon on your way down because of it.

 

[johnny guitar]

You and your supposed "proper scholarship".

You better believe I will keep bringing up John 17:3, because unlike Zechariah 12:10, John 17:3 cannot be translated in a way that can work with your false doctrine and neither can the context and precedent set in 1 John 1:1-3 coupled with 1 John 5:20 either.

Very clearly in both contexts their are two referents being spoken of, The Father as The Only True God and the Son whom he sent and who John specifically calls "The Eternal Life that was with the Father" and nowhere does John ever call Jesus him who is true or the True God in either.

In fact he said this instead "we are in him who is true, even in HIs (Him that is True) His - Son" and which again reveals two referents and not just one.

As I have shown, Zechariah 12:10 is translated as "and they shall look at him who they pierced and mourn for him" and the NT verifies this as the correct translation also being John quoted it that way.


That is why I said your argument on Zechariah 12:10 is a weak one at best but the argument from John 17:3 and 1 John 1:1-3 coupled with the rest of the context of 1 John 5:20 isn't weak but very powerful.

Indeed it pulls the guts right out of any argument you could ever make in support of your false doctrines about the Nature of God and Christ.

Indeed, we are IN HIM who is True, His Son Jesus Christ. This(The Son) is The True God.