Debate: Trent Horn vs Steve Christie (Marian dogmas)

4Him said:
For all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved....

Go in peace. Your faith has saved you~~Jesus Christ

Salvation is a gift, not a reward for doing good. Christians are new creations in Christ....or are Catholics unaware of this fact?
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Salvation itself, yes. That is a complete and free gift of God.

Works are saving WITHIN the context of the gift of salvation. Put another way: that works are saving--is part and parcel of the gift of salvation itself.
 
mica said:
yes, if you actually understand what it says. catholics don't and it shows in their posts here.

that means that what you meditate on is the false understanding taught by the rcc. It isn't His truth.
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Most of those verses I memorized before I turned back to the Catholic church. Meditating on those verses is what led me back to the Catholic church.
 
BornAgainRN said:
I have been invited to another debate against Trent Horn from Catholic Answers on the Roman Catholic Marian dogmas. I will be taking the position that Scripture contradicts the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, her Immaculate Conception, & her bodily Assumption to Heaven. It is scheduled for Wednesday, April 20 from 1-3 pm EST, on Matt Fradd's YouTube channel, "Pints with Aquinas." Below is the direct link to the LIVE debate. If you have a YouTube account, you can logon & asking us questions in the live chat during the Q&A. Please keep me in your prayers that God will be glorified & that I lead people to Christ!

DEBATE: The Marian Dogmas Contradict Scripture, Trent Horn Vs. Steve Christie
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At around 1.56.00... you state, (quoting Trent Horn), "that our theology should come from the Bible and not the Bible from our theology" then you stated, "that is sola scriptura folks and I agree with them, as did the apostle Paul and the1st century Roman church."

That is not accurate though. Not all theology came from the Bible. In the early days of the Christian faith the OT scriptures were all they had. Some of what we believe, our theology, were "mysteries" that were revealed to us by the Holy Spirit. Here is one example:

Ephesians 3:1-6, "This is the reason that I Paul am a prisoner for Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles— for surely you have already heard of the commission of God’s grace that was given me for you, and how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I wrote above in a few words, a reading of which will enable you to perceive my understanding of the mystery of Christ. In former generations this mystery was not made known to humankind, as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit: that is, the Gentiles have become fellow heirs, members of the same body, and sharers in the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel."
 
Misfit said:
Our separated brethren say all one has to do is believe in Christ and salvation is assure. Well, further reading of the scriptures say that there is a cause and effect on this depending on how we live our lives. If we don't get this reward, then what? Hell?
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Well all RCs say is get sprinkled by water and all is well with the world, follow this up with the so called sacraments and purgatory and they can do as they please. So many RCs will find out what will happen when they find out purgatory is a lie.
 
Misfit said:
Yeah, and this reward business? That suggests something else, like, one could lose their salvation perhaps? Wait, I know, then your answer will be that they never had salvation in the first place. I have heard it all before.
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Of course you have no reward system at all. Why do you do works to earn rewards? Whereas non RCs have the reward and therefore their works are because Jesus has changed them. They don't have to earn rewards at all.
 
dingoling. said:
We quote scripture and nCCs call it symbolic.
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Oh so according to you there is nothing symbolic in scripture LOL. Then Peter must be satan according to your interpretation. No wonder your institution is off the rails. But proves my point about who its real founder is and it is not Jesus.
 
romishpopishorganist said:
Salvation itself, yes. That is a complete and free gift of God.

Works are saving WITHIN the context of the gift of salvation. Put another way: that works are saving--is part and parcel of the gift of salvation itself.
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Nope--"For it is by grace you are saved; through faith--and that is not of yourselves; it is the gift of God--and NOT by works, so no one may boast."

What part of "not by works" don't Carholics understand?
 
Misfit said:
No, I call what you put out about the scriptures propaganda. Anyone can make the scriptures sing the tune they want them to sing, and you folks do this as good as anyone else. You do not hold the monopoly on absolute truth here.
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Yes an RCs are the experts in making scriptures sing their false teachings. That is why you have the Marian beliefs. You have not absolute truth in your institution at all. Your leaders are proven liars and liars can never be trusted.
 
dingoling. said:
At around 1.56.00... you state, (quoting Trent Horn), "that our theology should come from the Bible and not the Bible from our theology" then you stated, "that is sola scriptura folks and I agree with them, as did the apostle Paul and the1st century Roman church."

That is not accurate though. Not all theology came from the Bible. In the early days of the Christian faith the OT scriptures were all they had. Some of what we believe, our theology, were "mysteries" that were revealed to us by the Holy Spirit. Here is one example:

Ephesians 3:1-6, "This is the reason that I Paul am a prisoner for Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles— for surely you have already heard of the commission of God’s grace that was given me for you, and how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I wrote above in a few words, a reading of which will enable you to perceive my understanding of the mystery of Christ. In former generations this mystery was not made known to humankind, as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit: that is, the Gentiles have become fellow heirs, members of the same body, and sharers in the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel."
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You said: "Not all theology came from the Bible."

Then you quote the bible: "Ephesians 3:1-6"

Hilarious.
 
mica said:
yes, if you actually understand what it says. catholics don't and it shows in their posts here.

that means that what you meditate on is the false understanding taught by the rcc. It isn't His truth.
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Memorizing is good but the important thing is to put the scriptures into actions. RCs on these threads have shown a lot of talk but their posts reveal their actions. I mean we here RCs harp on about love and yet they reveal they do not understand Christian love is meant to be. They talk about not breaking commandments but constantly bear false witness. They talk about respectful dialogue and we have seen how they don't show respect at all in their posts.

There actions do not match their words. Jesus said let your yes be yes, your nos be no. Your actions are to match your words, otherwise you are just like the pharisees.
 
Bonnie said:
Nope--"For it is by grace you are saved; through faith--and that is not of yourselves; it is the gift of God--and NOT by works, so no one may boast."

What part of "not by works" don't Catholics understand?
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What part of "not saved by Faith alone" don't Lutherans understand?

And please----don't go on this whole "But waaaait! James is saying that a dead Faith produces no works, a living Faith produces works" bit, or "Yeah, like, you know, like James is contrasting a dead Faith with a living Faith" or "You know, like, works vindicate Faith" or whatever exegetical dance you want. Been there, done that, not interested. Besides, you know Catholics can do just as good an exegetical dance around Romans. I mean, you act like we have never heard these arguments before and read the Bible.

The fact is---anyone can make the Bible essentially teach whatever it is they want it to teach if they apply enough "exegesis" to it.

In my mind, the simplest solution is the one to be preferred. Paul emphasizes Faith against those who think works alone are saving. James emphasis Faith against those who think all they need is Faith. Easy peasy...

The Bible said it, I believe it, that settles it.
 
Stella1000 said:
This is the statement of the counter Reformation Council...

CHAPTER VIII:
HOW THE GRATUITOUS JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER BY FAITH IS TO BE UNDERSTOOD​
But when the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely, these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. For, if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the Apostle says, grace is no more grace.

This isn't the point of contention between Catholics and the Reformers.


No that isn't true. We believe that faith by nature moves a person to increase in good works, in virtue, in charity and that faith by it's very nature results in a recoiling from sin, a genuine sorrow for sin and a desire to make amends for our sins. We believe all of that is what faith is. That is the point of contention between our and your understanding.
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From Trent 32:

any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly MERIT INCREASE of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,-if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema.

Sorry, but your church does teach that the good works one does once one is saved do indeed help that person to keep on meriting grace and eternal life.

We do understand that being made a new creation in Christ Jesus leads to rejecting sin and wanting to do acts of love--but done in salvation, not for salvation.
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4Him said:
That’s not justification before God.
We are justified by faith before God. Works evidence that faith.
Catholics always have scripture contradicting itself.
There’s a reason JAMES says “show me your faith without your works and I’ll show you my faith by my works”…
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Did you, like, not read my whole post?

Don't waste your time or my time with your nonsensical exegetical dances that attempt to rewrite James so he says what you want him to say. Why can't you just let Paul and James speak for themselves--without the need for fancy exegesis?

"Not saved by Faith alone" means "Not saved by Faith alone." There is no contradiction between James and Romans--as they are writing to two different communities, each with their own problems.
 
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