Debate: Trent Horn vs Steve Christie (Marian dogmas)

The unity that Jesus speaks about can exist only among those who are converted to HIM, those who have been redeemed by the precious blood of the Lamb.
And who are these people? Do they believe infant Baptism or not? How about TULIP? Do they subscribe to Solo Scriptura or Sola Scriptura? Who are these people and what do they believe?
Unity between the forgiven and the unforgiven is impossible. How can there be unity between the Roman Catholic Church and evangelical churches when the doctrines of the RCC - their teachings, regarding Mass, purgatory, indulgences, baptismal regeneration - undermine the one sacrifice of Jesus that forever secured the remission of sin.
How do these doctrines undermine the ONE Sacrifice of Christ? From my perspective they are CONSEQUENCES of it and MAGNIFY it. They in no way undermine it.
 
“…each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward” (1 Corinthians 3:13-14 ESV).


“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil” (2 Corinthians 5:10 ESV).
What do these random Scripture postings have to do with anything?
 
Our separated brethren say all one has to do is believe in Christ and salvation is assure.

For all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved....

Go in peace. Your faith has saved you~~Jesus Christ
Well, further reading of the scriptures say that there is a cause and effect on this depending on how we live our lives. If we don't get this reward, then what? Hell?

Salvation is a gift, not a reward for doing good. Christians are new creations in Christ....or are Catholics unaware of this fact?

8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began...

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
 
Salvation is a gift, not a reward for doing good. Christians are new creations in Christ....or are Catholics unaware of this fact?
Yeah, and this reward business? That suggests something else, like, one could lose their salvation perhaps? Wait, I know, then your answer will be that they never had salvation in the first place. I have heard it all before.
 
Yeah, and this reward business?

You mean the rewards SCRIPTURE speaks of? Yea, salvation isn't a reward, it's a gift of God.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
That suggests something else, like, one could lose their salvation perhaps?

Except Jesus said His sheep shall never perish; and He will lose none that the Father has given to Him, and we are kept by the power of God, and sealed with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance....So, yea, there's that.

Wait, I know, then your answer will be that they never had salvation in the first place. I have heard it all before.

Too bad you don't believe it.


They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
 
I quoted scripture and you call it propaganda....no wonder Catholics are so lost.
No, I call what you put out about the scriptures propaganda. Anyone can make the scriptures sing the tune they want them to sing, and you folks do this as good as anyone else. You do not hold the monopoly on absolute truth here.
 
how many years have you been at the 'start' point now?

you've not yet made it to the 'milk' of scripture.

memorizing is good (I'm not good at that), but if you don't understand the verses you memorize, it's just a lot of meaningless words (that probably don't make much sense).

it's no different than rattling off the Lord's Prayer (as most have memorized) and saying the words 'Thy will be done' with no truth of those words behind your saying them. catholics don't know or pay attention to His will being done.

for catholics it's all about the will of the rcc and their own will to follow the rcc, instead of God's will for them to believe in and follow His Son.
Amen Mica! . . . Our dear Lord's prayer for unity only finds its fulfilment among those whom the Lord Jesus has saved.
 
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how many years have you been at the 'start' point now?

you've not yet made it to the 'milk' of scripture.

memorizing is good (I'm not good at that), but if you don't understand the verses you memorize, it's just a lot of meaningless words (that probably don't make much sense).

it's no different than rattling off the Lord's Prayer (as most have memorized) and saying the words 'Thy will be done' with no truth of those words behind your saying them. catholics don't know or pay attention to His will being done.

for catholics it's all about the will of the rcc and their own will to follow the rcc, instead of God's will for them to believe in and follow His Son.
Yes, memorizing is good, it exercises our brain muscles. But meditating on Scripture is what Scriptures tells us to do. So when we can memorize Scripture we can take it with us throughout the day and meditate on it. It is a good practice to develop.
 
No, I call what you put out about the scriptures propaganda. Anyone can make the scriptures sing the tune they want them to sing, and you folks do this as good as anyone else. You do not hold the monopoly on absolute truth here.
how would you even know? catholics here don't know basics of scripture - your 'teachers' don't teach them to you.
 
Yes, memorizing is good, it exercises our brain muscles. But meditating on Scripture is what Scriptures tells us to do. So when we can memorize Scripture we can take it with us throughout the day and meditate on it. It is a good practice to develop.
yes, if you actually understand what it says. catholics don't and it shows in their posts here.

that means that what you meditate on is the false understanding taught by the rcc. It isn't His truth.
 
mica said:
how many years have you been at the 'start' point now?

you've not yet made it to the 'milk' of scripture.

memorizing is good (I'm not good at that), but if you don't understand the verses you memorize, it's just a lot of meaningless words (that probably don't make much sense).

it's no different than rattling off the Lord's Prayer (as most have memorized) and saying the words 'Thy will be done' with no truth of those words behind your saying them. catholics don't know or pay attention to His will being done.

for catholics it's all about the will of the rcc and their own will to follow the rcc, instead of God's will for them to believe in and follow His Son.
Yes, memorizing is good, it exercises our brain muscles. But meditating on Scripture is what Scriptures tells us to do. So when we can memorize Scripture we can take it with us throughout the day and meditate on it. It is a good practice to develop.
you didn't answer the question asked.
 
Right: I am looking at the Scriptures "a-priori 'Catholic glasses' instead of looking at the Scriptures and what they actually say" but YOU are analogous to a white coated scientist in a lab totally and completely detached from the results of an experiment just going where the facts lead when you read Scripture. :rolleyes:

As if you DON'T read Scripture a-priori through LUTHERAN glasses instead of looking at the Scriptures and what they actually say.

You know--if the Scriptures speak for themselves Luther should never have had to add the word "alone" to "justified by Faith..." as the Scriptures are clear and are in need of no human alteration to clarify their meaning. Why did Luther think the Scriptures imperfect and in need of his corrections?

The fact is Bonnie, NO ONE approached the Scriptures from an objective standpoint. EVERYONE approaches Scripture with pre-conceived notions as to what they teach. EVERYONE reads into the Scriptures their own unique theological traditions and peculiar belief systems. Don't give me this nonsense about me reading into Scripture, but you just reading the Scriptures and allowing the data to take you where it will.

For Catholics this is why Christ founded a Church and endowed it with His authority to teach the Scriptures. You see---without an authoritative Church, you can pretty much make the Scriptures say whatever you want them to say.
Before he became a Christian, Paul was a Pharisee who practiced a legalistic religion. He had received his education from the leading authority at that time, Gamaliel. Paul said "Under Gamaliel, I was thoroughly trained in the law of our fathers. I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers." Paul wasn't boasting about his scholastic achievements, he was simply stating facts about himself that provide an insight into what he was like before his conversion to Jesus.
Paul was confident that his lineage from Abraham, the father of the nation of Israel, coupled with his meticulous observance of the law, was sufficient to secure his place in heaven. He, along with other Pharisees, had developed this line of thinking to a fine art! Amazing how this sounds just like living with false confidence in the flawed traditions and rules of the Roman Catholic Church . . . ignorantly trusting in a false righteousness.
 
Before he became a Christian, Paul was a Pharisee who practiced a legalistic religion. He had received his education from the leading authority at that time, Gamaliel. Paul said "Under Gamaliel, I was thoroughly trained in the law of our fathers. I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers." Paul wasn't boasting about his scholastic achievements, he was simply stating facts about himself that provide an insight into what he was like before his conversion to Jesus.
Paul was confident that his lineage from Abraham, the father of the nation of Israel, coupled with his meticulous observance of the law, was sufficient to secure his place in heaven. He, along with other Pharisees, had developed this line of thinking to a fine art! Amazing how this sounds just like living with false confidence in the flawed traditions and rules of the Roman Catholic Church . . . ignorantly trusting in a false righteousness.
catholicism is a very legalistic religion (man made).
 
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