Debate: Trent Horn vs Steve Christie (Marian dogmas)

[BornAgainRN]

I have been invited to another debate against Trent Horn from Catholic Answers on the Roman Catholic Marian dogmas. I will be taking the position that Scripture contradicts the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, her Immaculate Conception, & her bodily Assumption to Heaven. It is scheduled for Wednesday, April 20 from 1-3 pm EST, on Matt Fradd's YouTube channel, "Pints with Aquinas." Below is the direct link to the LIVE debate. If you have a YouTube account, you can logon & asking us questions in the live chat during the Q&A. Please keep me in your prayers that God will be glorified & that I lead people to Christ!

DEBATE: The Marian Dogmas Contradict Scripture, Trent Horn Vs. Steve Christie

 

[dingoling.]

I have been invited to another debate against Trent Horn from Catholic Answers on the Roman Catholic Marian dogmas. I will be taking the position that Scripture contradicts the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, her Immaculate Conception, & her bodily Assumption to Heaven. It is scheduled for Wednesday, April 20 from 1-3 pm EST, on Matt Fradd's YouTube channel, "Pints with Aquinas." Below is the direct link to the LIVE debate. If you have a YouTube account, you can logon & asking us questions in the live chat during the Q&A. Please keep me in your prayers that God will be glorified & that I lead people to Christ!

DEBATE: The Marian Dogmas Contradict Scripture, Trent Horn Vs. Steve Christie

The debate has been going on now for 100's of years. I don't think the issue will ever be settled.

 

[PeanutGallery]

The debate has been going on now for 100's of years. I don't think the issue will ever be settled.

The issue has been settled; neither Scripture, Jesus, nor his apostles spoke of Mary's perpetual virginity, Immaculate Conception, or assumed Assumption.

 

[dingoling.]

The issue has been settled; neither Scripture, Jesus, nor his apostles spoke of Mary's perpetual virginity, Immaculate Conception, or assumed Assumption.

They are discerned from scripture. And scripture alone isn't the final authority for the Christian faith. So no the issue hasn't been settled.

 

[RiJoRi]

They are discerned from scripture. And scripture alone isn't the final authority for the Christian faith. So no the issue hasn't been settled.

No, Scripture alone is not the final authority for the Catholic faith. That authority would be your Masters.

 

[dingoling.]

No, Scripture alone is not the final authority for the Catholic faith. That authority would be your Masters.

Catholics are honest and admit that scripture alone isn't the final authority. The nCCs are dishonest in claiming that scripture alone is their final authority when in numerous instances it is clearly not. So why don't nCCs admit the truth - that scripture alone isn't their final authority?

 

[PeanutGallery]

Catholics are honest and admit that scripture alone isn't the final authority.

Of course, Catholics claim to be honest when they declare scripture alone is not their final authority; however, are they honest when the cannot provide scripture which states RCC uninspired unwritten Tradition is equal to God's written inspired Scripture?

 

[romishpopishorganist]

The debate has been going on now for 100's of years. I don't think the issue will ever be settled.

Correct; if one is Protestant, the issue cannot be settled. This is becasue in Protestantism, there is no mechanism that speaks with the authority of God that may judge the Scriptural evidence for or against a position, and the arguments for or against the position and then issue a definitive and binding decision.

If you are Catholic, however, these issues have been definitively settled and thus no more reason to debate them. The Church has spoken, the case is closed. Mary is IC, PV and Assumed in to heaven. The Church says so, therefore Scripture says so and Scripture says so, therefore the Church says so. A circle has no beginning.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Catholics are honest and admit that scripture alone isn't the final authority. The nCCs are dishonest in claiming that scripture alone is their final authority when in numerous instances it is clearly not. So why don't nCCs admit the truth - that scripture alone isn't their final authority?

Gods Word is final for me.Not once was I led in error with Gods Word.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Correct; if one is Protestant, the issue cannot be settled. This is becasue in Protestantism, there is no mechanism that speaks with the authority of God that may judge the Scriptural evidence for or against a position, and the arguments for or against the position and then issue a definitive and binding decision.

If you are Catholic, however, these issues have been definitively settled and thus no more reason to debate them. The Church has spoken, the case is closed. Mary is IC, PV and Assumed in to heaven. The Church says so, therefore Scripture says so and Scripture says so, therefore the Church says so. A circle has no beginning.

The RCC will keep you going in circles. Its like a ship without a rudder.

 

[romishpopishorganist]

Gods Word is final for me. Not once was I led in error with Gods Word.

Of course God's Word is final. That isn't the question and never has been the question.

The question is--where does Scripture teach that Scripture is the sole locus of God's authority?

 

[romishpopishorganist]

The RCC will keep you going in circles. Its like a ship without a rudder.

Um, no, actually--that is Protestantism.

Protestantism has the Scriptures but they have no one endowed with the authority of God as the teacher of the Scriptures. Hence, each Protestant is their own sole teacher and authority on the Scriptures. If the Church is the boat, it is like having each individual on the boat as the captain and each captain saying "Turn the boat right" "No, turn it left" "No, steady as she goes" "No turn it around" "No, turn it sideways" "No...do nothing" and the poor person at the wheel trying to follow the conflicting commands because everyone is the captain.

 

[dingoling.]

Correct; if one is Protestant, the issue cannot be settled. This is becasue in Protestantism, there is no mechanism that speaks with the authority of God that may judge the Scriptural evidence for or against a position, and the arguments for or against the position and then issue a definitive and binding decision.

If you are Catholic, however, these issues have been definitively settled and thus no more reason to debate them. The Church has spoken, the case is closed. Mary is IC, PV and Assumed in to heaven. The Church says so, therefore Scripture says so and Scripture says so, therefore the Church says so. A circle has no beginning.

That is correct the nCCs have no mechanism that speaks with the authority of God, hence unless they appeal to the actual words of scripture, none of the issues will be settled for them. It is sad the amount of time the nCCs spend debating over all the issues that divide them instead of spending that same time proclaiming the gospel.

 

[Stella1000]

I will be taking the position that Scripture contradicts the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, her Immaculate Conception, & her bodily Assumption to Heaven.

The Protestant position would have more legs if there was at least some recognition of Mary's exalted position in the economy of salvation. It is impossible to read Lukes account of Mary, her song and the words of the angel, and not see her somewhere above the rest of us looking to Christ. Most Protestants I've encountered here try so hard to rip her from the womb of the salvation scripture.

 

[dingoling.]

Gods Word is final for me.Not once was I led in error with Gods Word.

You can claim that God's word is final for you, but it is not. When you have a doctrinal difference with other Christians your only appeal is to the actual words of scripture. But you don't do that.

 

[romishpopishorganist]

It is sad the amount of time the nCCs spend debating over all the issues that divide them instead of spending that same time proclaiming the gospel.

Actually--here I respectfully disagree.

If you read the posts where I have challenged the Protestants on the disunity that plagues the sects, you will notice that they tend to minimalize, gloss over, or otherwise dismiss the disunity as irrelevant. The disunity that exists is simply not a problem for them.

Sure---the Lutheran argues that Christ is truly present in the species of the Eucharist, while the Baptist denies this as a lie from the pit of Hell. Sure the Presbyterians baptize infants while the Baptists believe infant baptism is a lie from the pit of Hell. Sure Reformed Presbyterians believe in TULIP while most other sects believe that to be a lie from the pit of Hell. Sure some sects ordain women, while others believe the ordination of women is a lie from the pit of Hell. On and on the divisions go, where they stop, no one knows. But--for the Protestants on this site, who cares? All that matters is that they aren't Catholic. As long as they aren't Catholic, the disagreements simply do not matter.

Basically--for the Protestants on this site it is sort of a "We don't know what we believe. We just know we do not believe what Catholics believe."

The one thing that unites the Protestants on this site is their hatred for Catholicism. As long as one is not Catholic, but claims to be a "Bible Christian" it does not matter what one believes--just so long as they don't believe what Catholics believe.

So the Protestants do not debate the issues that divide them--becasue they simply don't care about the issues that divide them. The divisions that exist simply isn't an issue for them. Unity and oneness in Faith simply isn't necessary for them--because the Church is this invisible thing that bears no relationship to anything in the material world, Christ, or salvation. The Protestants do not see the connection between the Church, Christ and salvation.

 

[Theo1689]

The debate has been going on now for 100's of years. I don't think the issue will ever be settled.

So Romanists have never been able to defend their beliefs for 100's of years.
That's quite a telling admission.

 

[Theo1689]

They are discerned from scripture.

No they aren't.

And scripture alone isn't the final authority for the Christian faith.

Yes, it is.
So say the ECF's.

So no the issue hasn't been settled.

That's because Romanism is indefensible.

 

[Theo1689]

Catholics are honest and admit that scripture alone isn't the final authority.

No, Catholics are NOT honest. See below.

The nCCs are dishonest in claiming that scripture alone is their final authority when in numerous instances it is clearly not.

Not only is the above a personal attack, but it is untrue.

So why don't nCCs admit the truth - that scripture alone isn't their final authority?

Because it IS our final authority.
Why don't Romanists try to defend their beliefs, instead of attacking Protestants?
Oh, it's because they can't.

 

[Theo1689]

Protestantism has the Scriptures but they have no one endowed with the authority of God as the teacher of the Scriptures.

I'm sorry if you are unable to understand Scriptures, and have to have some stranger tell you what Scripture says, because you can't understand Scripture to determine if they are telling you the truth.

You are blindly accepting the unsubstantiated claims of stranger.
That is NOT wise.

Hence, each Protestant is their own sole teacher and authority on the Scriptures. If the Church is the boat, it is like having each individual on the boat as the captain and each captain saying "Turn the boat right" "No, turn it left" "No, steady as she goes" "No turn it around" "No, turn it sideways" "No...do nothing" and the poor person at the wheel trying to follow the conflicting commands because everyone is the captain.

There are no "conflicting commands".
We are all going in the same direction, because we all understand Scripture.

Again, if you can't understand Scripture, what makes you think you can understand:
- CARM posts;
- the newspaper;
- the CCC;
- papal encyclicals?

Funny how you can NEVER answer this question...