Once Saved--Always Saved?

[Unknown Soldier]

Oh course we can.

I'm not sure who we is, but I already posted proof that Biblically speaking, saved Christians do not and cannot sin. For your convenience I will post it here. 1 John 3:9-10 (NRSVUE):

Those who have been born of God do not sin because God’s seed abides in them; they cannot sin because they have been born of God. The children of God and the children of the devil are revealed in this way: all who do not do what is right are not from God, nor are those who do not love a brother or sister.

I don't know how the requirement of repentance can be any clearer than that.

Free will does not cease.

That's correct but not a problem for those who sincerely seek salvation. A person who is saved has freely chosen to abstain from sin.

Where does scripture teach OSAS?

The alternative to OSAS is simply ludicrous: How can anybody be "saved" only to end up separated from God? That's simply not what salvation is all about. Salvation is to live forever in the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus taught that those who want eternal life must obey the commandments which is to repent. If you disobey those commandments you must cease doing so forever if you want to be saved. Those who sin are not saved or not yet saved.

 

[Nedsk]

I'm not sure who we is, but I already posted proof that Biblically speaking, saved Christians do not and cannot sin. For your convenience I will post it here. 1 John 3:9-10 (NRSVUE):

I don't know how the requirement of repentance can be any clearer than that.

That's correct but not a problem for those who sincerely seek salvation. A person who is saved has freely chosen to abstain from sin.

The alternative to OSAS is simply ludicrous: How can anybody be "saved" only to end up separated from God? That's simply not what salvation is all about. Salvation is to live forever in the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus taught that those who want eternal life must obey the commandments which is to repent. If you disobey those commandments you must cease doing so forever if you want to be saved. Those who sin are not saved or not yet saved

So you're saying you never sin? So if I understand you correctly, since you were "saved" you have never told an untruth? You haven't uttered one word that wasn't the absolute truth?

 

[Unknown Soldier]

So you're saying you never sin?

That is correct. Jesus as you should know was tempted in all ways we are tempted yet was without sin. I don't believe he lived a sinless life to show us up. Rather, he did so to teach us that it is possible to live free of sin. In other words, if he did it, then so can we. I see Christ as an example to follow.

So if I understand you correctly, since you were "saved" you have never told an untruth?

Since that moment I have never deliberately told an untruth although there is no way I can prove it to you.

You haven't uttered one word that wasn't the absolute truth?

If I did, then it was a mistake rather than a lie. I take my Christian walk very seriously. I sincerely want to be like Jesus. Jesus never lied because he simply decided not to. Like Jesus we can all decide to abstain from all sin.

 

[Nedsk]

That is correct. Jesus as you should know was tempted in all ways we are tempted yet was without sin. I don't believe he lived a sinless life to show us up. Rather, he did so to teach us that it is possible to live free of sin. In other words, if he did it, then so can we. I see Christ as an example to follow.

Since that moment I have never deliberately told an untruth although there is no way I can prove it to you.

If I did, then it was a mistake rather than a lie. I take my Christian walk very seriously. I sincerely want to be like Jesus. Jesus never lied because he simply decided not to. Like Jesus we can all decide to abstain from all sin.

LMBO

 

[Josheb]

I'm not sure who we is, but I already posted proof that Biblically speaking, saved Christians do not and cannot sin.

Well, no you did not. Not a single verse posted actually states "Christians do not and cannot sin."

 

[Josheb]

Since that moment I have never deliberately told an untruth although there is no way I can prove it to you.

Why does "deliberately" matter?

Are you aware God required a sacrifice for unknown sins? (see Lev. 5:17)

See also...

Psalm 19:12-13
Who can discern his errors? Acquit me of hidden faults. Also keep back Your servant from presumptuous sins; Let them not rule over me; Then I will be blameless, And I shall be acquitted of great transgression.

 

[Josheb]

Jesus never lied because he simply decided not to.

Whoa!

You really need to get a better Christology! Jesus never lied because there was nothing ungodly within in him. Even his flesh was sinless. There were no desires within him by which he might be dragged away and enticed to lie. Look up the doctrine of Impeccability.

 

[Nedsk]

Whoa!

You really need to get a better Christology! Jesus never lied because there was nothing ungodly within in him. Even his flesh was sinless. There were no desires within him by which he might be dragged away and enticed to lie. Look up the doctrine of Impeccability.

They really have it twisted up

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Whoa!

I haven't heard that exclamation since the last time I watched Beavis and Butt-Head.

You really need to get a better Christology! Jesus never lied because there was nothing ungodly within in him.

He was a man who was subjected to all the temptations we are subjected to.

Even his flesh was sinless.

What do you mean by that?

There were no desires within him by which he might be dragged away and enticed to lie. Look up the doctrine of Impeccability.

I can disprove your claim here in one short passage. Hebrews 4:15:

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

In other words Jesus was able to understand our weaknesses being subjected to the same temptations to sin we are subjected to, and he endured it without sinning proving that a man (or woman) can go without sinning. Keep in mind that Jesus had a man's body complete with all the desires of the flesh including drunkenness and fornication. He through an act of will resisted temptations from the Devil himself. There is then no excuse for anybody sinning.

Personally, I absolutely hate all the sin I see in the church. I want it out of the church, and I want any person who chooses to sin out of the church until she or he can clean up her or his act. If you plan to sin, then please leave the church.

 

[Josheb]

He was a man who was subjected to all the temptations we are subjected to.

Yes, and there is not a single sentence in the entire Bible he ever thought about giving in to any of that to which he was subjected. There is not a single sentence ever saying he had any untoward desire by which he might be dragged away and enticed.

You must understand what you are saying because Jesus made it very clear thinking about sins was evidence of sinfulness. If you look on a woman with lust you've committed adultery. You don't actually have to follow thought with the thoughts and lusts and have sex with her. If you're angry and say, "Raca," then you're in danger of hell's fires.

If Jesus thought about sodomizing little boys and chopping up their corpses for stir-fry then he committed those sins. The scripture you are citing says "ALL," not "some." The moment you have Jesus entertaining any one temptation you must relinquish him to ALL! Homosexuality, bestiality, rape, connabalism..... the list is endless. There's a lot of temptations to which a person can be subjected.

Being subjected to a tempting condition does not mean a person feels the influence of that condition. We are tempted by our own desires that drag us away and entice us (James 1:14). Jesus had no evild desires by which he might be dragged way and if you think otherwise then simple post the verse labeling his lust.

What do you mean by that?

If you do not understand that sentence, then you have no business coming into an internet forum to tell others how and what to believe. Here's a hint: read Genesis 1:31 and 2 Corinthians 5:21.

I can disprove your claim here in one short passage. Hebrews 4:15:

In other words Jesus was able to understand our weaknesses being subjected to the same temptations to sin we are subjected to, and he endured it without sinning proving that a man (or woman) can go without sinning. Keep in mind that Jesus had a man's body complete with all the desires of the flesh including drunkenness and fornication. He through an act of will resisted temptations from the Devil himself. There is then no excuse for anybody sinning.

Quote me the verse labeling any of Jesus desires that would have led him to sin. Until you do you have not proved anything other than your ability to mishandle scripture. That, in turn, will show you continue to sin even after being saved.

If Jesus had the desire of drunkenness or fornication, then surely there is a verse stating that somewhere in the New Testament. If not those two temptations then certainly one of the ALL to which he was subjected. Show me the verse.


And when you cannot provide such a verse realize what that silence of scripture is tell you. Jesus had flesh, but he didn't have the sinful flesh in which you and I live in as a consequence of past sins.

 

[Deuteronomy]

Thanks for the advice, but I'm left wondering how my pastor is the final arbiter of the issue of whether or not saved Christians can sin or are allowed to sin. If he were to tell me that yes they can and do sin, then I would disagree with him as much as I'm disagreeing with you. I don't normally appeal to human authority. To do so is a fallacy. Besides, I think my pastor would agree with me because he told me that a member of his congregation was sinning. My pastor told me that he told the man to either stop sinning or tell people he wasn't a Christian.

So what has your pastor told you? Did he tell you that sinning on the part of the saved is to be expected? Has he granted you an indulgence to sin, or has he told you to stop sinning?

Hello again Unknown Soldier, I suggested your pastor as a trusted source .. cf Hebrews 13:7, 17, not as a "final arbiter" (I believe that the "noble-minded Bereans" got that one right, just FYI, considering their choice of "final arbiter" .. Acts 17:10-11).

As far as appealing to human authority being a fallacy goes, if that's true, why did the Lord give us prophets, teachers, our undershepherds (pastors & elders) and our deacons, to lead our congregations in the visible church (church militant) In fact (if you don't mind me asking), if that's what you truly believe (that all of that is a fallacy), then why do you go to church .. or come here to CARM/CARM forums for that matter

As far as sin and our elders/pastors (and therefore our church & its members) are concerned, if we discover that someone in our congregation is both sinning and impenitent, we take the appropriate, loving Biblical steps to help them rectify the matter (church discipline), both for the sinning believer's sake, as well, of course, for the sake of the rest of our congregants.

Matthew 18​

15 If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.​

16 But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.​

17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.​

​

Galatians 6​

1 Dear brothers and sisters, if another believer is overcome by some sin, you who are godly should gently and humbly help that person back onto the right path. And be careful not to fall into the same temptation yourself.​

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy
p.s. - as the Lord Jesus also told us,

Luke 17​

3 “If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.​

4 And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”​

​

 

[Deuteronomy]

1 John is actually telling us that the saved do not and cannot sin.

Actually, 1 John says nothing of the sort (unless you pull 1 John 3:9 out-of-context that is, and/or attempt to interpret it apart from the meaning that the Lord intended it to have by His use of the Greek present tense).

You said that your authority/final arbiter is the Bible (and I told you that I believed you were correct to consider it so), so let it be just that in this case too, your final arbiter, by considering what is ~actually~ being said in 1 John 3 ~IN CONTEXT~, both with the rest of 1 John (IOW, with what was written about this topic in the two previous Chapters of the same Epistle), as well with in rest of the Bible.

Surely you do not believe (as a for instance) that women are "~saved~ through childbearing" (see 1 Timothy 2:15 below), even though that is what you'd be faced with believing if you took 1 Timothy 2:15 by itself/out-of-context. However, even though your understanding of how women are saved is not based upon 1 Timothy 2:15 alone (because you know to include what the rest of the Bible has to say to reach a proper exegesis), that is ~exactly~ what you've been choosing to do with 1 John 3:9-10 (you've been taking it out-of-context and thereby giving it a different meaning than the Lord intended it to have , whether you realize it or not).

1 Timothy 2​

15 Women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.​

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy

1 John 1 (NRSVUE)​

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. ​

9 If we confess our sins, he who is faithful and just will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. ​

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.​

​

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Hello again Unknown Soldier, I suggested your pastor as a trusted source .. cf Hebrews 13:7, 17, not as a "final arbiter" (I believe that the "noble-minded Bereans" got that one right, just FYI, considering their choice of "final arbiter" .. Acts 17:10-11).

But I already explained that my pastor does not consider sinners to be truly saved. So I need not ask him what I already know he believes.

As far as appealing to human authority being a fallacy goes, if that's true, why did the Lord give us prophets, teachers, our undershepherds (pastors & elders) and our deacons, to lead our congregations in the visible church (church militant)

Pastors are not necessarily prophets that God has given us. I don't know that my pastor has ever claimed to be a prophet. Do you think your pastor is a prophet, or has he ever told you that he is a prophet sent by God? (Please answer this question! It's not a rhetorical question, and I cannot make my points with you without clear, sensible and informative answers to my questions from you. I promise to answer your questions. Agreed?)

In fact (if you don't mind me asking), if that's what you truly believe (that all of that is a fallacy), then why do you go to church .. or come here to CARM/CARM forums for that matter

I simply don't see Christians as necessarily prophets, but that doesn't mean I won't dialogue with them about doctrine. Church and CARM are just places for me to discuss theology and other issues with other believers.

So you see that I answered your question? How would you feel if I rudely dodged it? Chances are good that if I refused to answer your questions, then it would be impossible for you to make your points to me. I want to be treated the same way I treat you. It's not only fair, but it's what our Lord commanded.

As far as sin and our elders/pastors (and therefore our church & its members) are concerned, if we discover that someone in our congregation is both sinning and impenitent, we take the appropriate, loving Biblical steps to help them rectify the matter (church discipline), both for the sinning believer's sake, as well, of course, for the sake of the rest of our congregants.

​

Thanks for the reply, but you're not really answering my question. What does your pastor say about unrepentant sinners in the church? From what you've been posting, it appears that if you and your pastor agree on what impact sin has on people, then your pastor believes that giving up all sin is not necessary for salvation.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

If you do not understand that sentence, then you have no business coming into an internet forum to tell others how and what to believe. Here's a hint: read Genesis 1:31 and 2 Corinthians 5:21.

If you don't answer my questions, then this dialogue is over. I can't make my points with you when you dodge my questions which, apparently, is your whole idea. So either tell me in your own words what you mean by Jesus having "sinless flesh," or don't engage me in debate. I'm not here to play games with people who obviously have something to hide.

 

[Josheb]

If you don't answer my questions, then this dialogue is over. I can't make my points with you when you dodge my questions which, apparently, is your whole idea. So either tell me in your own words what you mean by Jesus having "sinless flesh," or don't engage me in debate. I'm not here to play games with people who obviously have something to hide.

What do you think scripture means when, after having made Adam and Eve out of flesh and blood it states,

Genesis 1:31
God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

?????

Were Adam and Eve were made out of flesh?

What do you think scripture means when is states the following about Jesus,

2 Corinthians 5:21
God made him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

?????

Did Jesus have human flesh? Was his flesh sinful?

What do you think scripture means when it states Jesus was made in the likeness of sinful flesh?

Romans 8:3-4
For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

?????

How do you reconcile Roman 8 with 2 Corinthians 5:21?

What do you make of the fact sacrifices to God had to be perfect, without defect, no scars, disease, or deformities,

1 Peter 1:17-19
If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.

And yet Jesus was torturously disfigured by the time he was nailed to the cross?

If you don't answer my questions, then this dialogue is over.

Practice what you preach. It is you who have not answered my questions, beginning with the how you reconcile Peter and Paul having sinned after having become saved? YOU ARE THE ONE NOT ANSWERING QUESTIONS, YOU HYPOCRITE!!! You've been sinning throughout this thread so, according to your own posts you are either not saved or you are incorrect about the Christian's ability to sin.

Can't have it both ways.

I can't make my points with you when you dodge my questions...

Hogwash. Nothing stops you from writing your point on your own keyboard and clicking "Post reply" button. You've just born false witness. You must not be saved.

...which, apparently, is your whole idea.

Ephesians 4:29
Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear.

Romans 12:10, 18
Be devoted to one another in brotherly love; give preference to one another in honor..... If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.

Philippians 2:3
Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.

Colossians 4:6
Let your speech always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person.

You have just told someone you have never met their motive is intentionally dishonest. That was done by violating a pile of scripture while claiming Christians cannot sin. I haven't avoided the question at all, I have simply chosen to answer using method, not content, by using your own conduct. Much like Nathan did with David.

So either tell me in your own words what you mean by Jesus having "sinless flesh," or don't engage me in debate. I'm not here to play games with people who obviously have something to hide.

The moment you enter an internet discussion board you volunteer to present your ideas to everyone, and they have complete liberty to bring to bear anything they so choose as long as it does not violate the tou. I will engage in debate with anyone I choose, anytime I choose and any way I choose and until you get elected the sheriff of the forum you don't get to tell others what to do.


The fact is you're caught in a contradiction because you've claimed saved people do not sin when you yourself have sinned by making that statement!!!!! You've made the mistake of taking a select small few verses out of their contexts and applying them in direct contradiction to the very examples or precedents scripture itself provides for EVERYONE so that they will know perfection is not possible on this side of the grave!

Take very serious care not to become a false teacher!

Scripture has decided things to say about such people and their claims of salvation.


My answer to your question is found in Post #16. Your question was answered before it was even asked but you didn't see it for what it was. Your question was answered again in Post #19 but was again not understood.

Salvation is a process that began prior to the creation of the world when Jesus was foreknown as the perfect, blemish-free sacrifice and for us it begins with conversion, God bringing us from death to life, regenerating and renewing us with the Holy Spirit. We are washed clean from all past sins but we continue to be sanctified by God to obey His Son, being taught by the word and those Jesus has prepared for us so that we will become more Christlike, being equipped for the work of service, building up the body of Christ (which is you and I) until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, maturing until our stature measures the fullness of Christ so that we are no longer tossed about by every doctrine like waves in the wind.

This is like Christianity 101

James 1:2-4
Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

Romans 5:1-5
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

2 Peter 1:3-9
His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins.

We were washed from past sins. We are tested by God so that we will grow, we will persevere and learn faithfulness, obedience, and have a proven character. Your were not magically made perfect to the point of never again being imperfect the moment God brought you from death to life. You've got work to do. We all do.

And it begins with you making amends for this op because it teaches some things that are not true. It does not reflect whole scripture; it presents a skewed view of life this side of the grave using a handful of selected scriptures out of their context of whole scripture.



1 Thessalonians 5:23
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

What do you think scripture means when, after having made Adam and Eve out of flesh and blood it states,

Genesis 1:31
God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

?????

Were Adam and Eve were made out of flesh?

What do you think scripture means when is states the following about Jesus,

2 Corinthians 5:21
God made him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

?????

Did Jesus have human flesh? Was his flesh sinful?

What do you think scripture means when it states Jesus was made in the likeness of sinful flesh?

Romans 8:3-4
For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

?????

How do you reconcile Roman 8 with 2 Corinthians 5:21?

What do you make of the fact sacrifices to God had to be perfect, without defect, no scars, disease, or deformities,

1 Peter 1:17-19
If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.

And yet Jesus was torturously disfigured by the time he was nailed to the cross?

Practice what you preach. It is you who have not answered my questions, beginning with the how you reconcile Peter and Paul having sinned after having become saved? YOU ARE THE ONE NOT ANSWERING QUESTIONS, YOU HYPOCRITE!!! You've been sinning throughout this thread so, according to your own posts you are either not saved or you are incorrect about the Christian's ability to sin.

Can't have it both ways.

Hogwash. Nothing stops you from writing your point on your own keyboard and clicking "Post reply" button. You've just born false witness. You must not be saved.

Ephesians 4:29
Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear.

Romans 12:10, 18
Be devoted to one another in brotherly love; give preference to one another in honor..... If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.

Philippians 2:3
Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.

Colossians 4:6
Let your speech always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person.

You have just told someone you have never met their motive is intentionally dishonest. That was done by violating a pile of scripture while claiming Christians cannot sin. I haven't avoided the question at all, I have simply chosen to answer using method, not content, by using your own conduct. Much like Nathan did with David.

The moment you enter an internet discussion board you volunteer to present your ideas to everyone, and they have complete liberty to bring to bear anything they so choose as long as it does not violate the tou. I will engage in debate with anyone I choose, anytime I choose and any way I choose and until you get elected the sheriff of the forum you don't get to tell others what to do.


The fact is you're caught in a contradiction because you've claimed saved people do not sin when you yourself have sinned by making that statement!!!!! You've made the mistake of taking a select small few verses out of their contexts and applying them in direct contradiction to the very examples or precedents scripture itself provides for EVERYONE so that they will know perfection is not possible on this side of the grave!

Take very serious care not to become a false teacher!

Scripture has decided things to say about such people and their claims of salvation.


My answer to your question is found in Post #16. Your question was answered before it was even asked but you didn't see it for what it was. Your question was answered again in Post #19 but was again not understood.

Salvation is a process that began prior to the creation of the world when Jesus was foreknown as the perfect, blemish-free sacrifice and for us it begins with conversion, God bringing us from death to life, regenerating and renewing us with the Holy Spirit. We are washed clean from all past sins but we continue to be sanctified by God to obey His Son, being taught by the word and those Jesus has prepared for us so that we will become more Christlike, being equipped for the work of service, building up the body of Christ (which is you and I) until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, maturing until our stature measures the fullness of Christ so that we are no longer tossed about by every doctrine like waves in the wind.

This is like Christianity 101

James 1:2-4
Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

Romans 5:1-5
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

2 Peter 1:3-9
His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins.

We were washed from past sins. We are tested by God so that we will grow, we will persevere and learn faithfulness, obedience, and have a proven character. Your were not magically made perfect to the point of never again being imperfect the moment God brought you from death to life. You've got work to do. We all do.

And it begins with you making amends for this op because it teaches some things that are not true. It does not reflect whole scripture; it presents a skewed view of life this side of the grave using a handful of selected scriptures out of their context of whole scripture.



1 Thessalonians 5:23
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Cuh--Lick!

 

[Deuteronomy]

But I already explained that my pastor does not consider sinners to be truly saved. So I need not ask him what I already know he believes.

Pastors are not necessarily prophets that God has given us. I don't know that my pastor has ever claimed to be a prophet. Do you think your pastor is a prophet, or has he ever told you that he is a prophet sent by God? (Please answer this question! It's not a rhetorical question, and I cannot make my points with you without clear, sensible and informative answers to my questions from you. I promise to answer your questions. Agreed?)

I simply don't see Christians as necessarily prophets, but that doesn't mean I won't dialogue with them about doctrine. Church and CARM are just places for me to discuss theology and other issues with other believers.

So you see that I answered your question? How would you feel if I rudely dodged it? Chances are good that if I refused to answer your questions, then it would be impossible for you to make your points to me. I want to be treated the same way I treat you. It's not only fair, but it's what our Lord commanded.

Thanks for the reply, but you're not really answering my question. What does your pastor say about unrepentant sinners in the church? From what you've been posting, it appears that if you and your pastor agree on what impact sin has on people, then your pastor believes that giving up all sin is not necessary for salvation.

Hello Unknown Soldier, what you said earlier was,

"I think my pastor would agree with me because he told me that a member of his congregation was sinning. My pastor told me that he told the man to either stop sinning or tell people he wasn't a Christian."

If your pastor believes that the member who is sinning in your congregation can "stop sinning" and still be considered a Christian, that means that your pastor believes what I do about Christians (and what the rest of the historic Christian church, both Protestant and Catholic have always taught, and what the Bible teaches as well), that a true believer can/will sin at times, and that he/she will repent whenever they do, once the Holy Spirit makes them aware that they have done so.

So, perhaps you ~do~ need to ask your pastor about what he believes and why (as a trusted source), with as much of an open mind as you can muster, of course

As far as pastors not being prophets, I never said that they were (pastors are referred to as overseers, elders and/or undershepherds in the Bible, not prophets, and I did my best to make that distinction in my last post).

Quite frankly, I believe that the office of OT prophet ended with John the Baptist, and then (the office in a general sense), with the Lord Jesus Himself, but the Apostle Paul appears to say otherwise .. e.g. 1 Corinthians 12:27-31, as does Luke .. e.g. Acts 13:1 (so the jury remains out for me about the existence of modern day prophets in the church). I believe that the office of Apostle ended when the last Apostle, the Apostle John, died, just FYI.

As for my senior pastor, no, he would NEVER claim to be a prophet (or an apostle). Rather, he claims to be a pastor, which in his case includes being a preacher, a teacher, a counselor, and someone who prays daily for all of us and much more. I don't believe that there is a pastor in any of the other churches in my present denomination (Evangelical Free Church of America), or in my former denomination, the Presbyterian Church, who would lay claim to being some sort of modern day version of either a prophet or an apostle.

I hope I have answered your questions this time (I apologize for not doing so earlier, though I thought that I had done so). If there's one (or more) that you feel that I have missed (and that you would still like answered), please ask it again.

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy
p.s. - what my pastor and church say to unrepentant sinners in our congregation who will not stop sinning (e.g. a husband who is cheating on his wife and/or one who has divorced his wife w/o Biblical cause) is that they need to leave our congregation until they choose to do otherwise/e.g. choose to seek forgiveness and return to their spouse (unless they've already remarried*). This kind of church discipline means that we will not only revoke their membership in the church, but that we will also ask them not to return as visitors, unless and until they repent. (*any who have divorced their husband or wife w/o Biblical cause and then remarried, will never be allowed to return to our congregation, just FYI)
.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

If your pastor believes that the member who is sinning in your congregation can "stop sinning" and still be considered a Christian, that means that your pastor believes what I do about Christians

My pastor has actually told me that sinlessness is an effect of salvation (rather than a cause of salvation). In other words, the Holy Spirit's regeneration that takes place upon the moment of salvation is partly evidenced by sinlessness on the part of the "new creature." Regeneration is substantial and even measurable in a sense--people can literally see the change. If the person goes on sinning as before, then no substantial change has occurred.

(and what the rest of the historic Christian church, both Protestant and Catholic have always taught, and what the Bible teaches as well), that a true believer can/will sin at times, and that he/she will repent whenever they do, once the Holy Spirit makes them aware that they have done so.

I need more information here from you if we continue this discussion. Are you saying that a believer can murder or rape, "at times" and still achieve salvation? I don't think that giving up murder, rape, or any sin is impossible at all especially with the assistance of an all-mighty God.

Quite frankly, I believe that the office of OT prophet ended with John the Baptist, and then (the office in a general sense), with the Lord Jesus Himself, but the Apostle Paul appears to say otherwise .. e.g. 1 Corinthians 12:27-31, as does Luke .. e.g. Acts 13:1 (so the jury remains out for me about the existence of modern day prophets in the church). I believe that the office of Apostle ended when the last Apostle, the Apostle John, died, just FYI.

I see no reason why God would retire the office of the prophet. We have always needed prophets.

As for my senior pastor, no, he would NEVER claim to be a prophet (or an apostle). Rather, he claims to be a pastor, which in his case includes being a preacher, a teacher, a counselor, and someone who prays daily for all of us and much more. I don't believe that there is a pastor in any of the other churches in my present denomination (Evangelical Free Church of America), or in my former denomination, the Presbyterian Church, who would lay claim to being some sort of modern day version of either a prophet or an apostle.

That's essentially what my pastor has told me. One day when I was asking him such very tough questions, he in exasperation retorted: "I'm a pastor..." which I took to mean that his job isn't to have answers to all the questions, something a prophet might have.

I hope I have answered your questions this time (I apologize for not doing so earlier, though I thought that I had done so). If there's one (or more) that you feel that I have missed (and that you would still like answered), please ask it again.

I'm not insisting on answers because I want to be hard-nosed with anybody. I need those answer to make my points with you or whoever I'm debating. If my questions get dodged, then what I'm saying has been unfairly deflected.

p.s. - what my pastor and church say to unrepentant sinners in our congregation who will not stop sinning (e.g. a husband who is cheating on his wife and/or one who has divorced his wife w/o Biblical cause) is that they need to leave our congregation until they choose to do otherwise/e.g. choose to seek forgiveness and return to their spouse (unless they've already remarried*). This kind of church discipline means that we will not only revoke their membership in the church, but that we will also ask them not to return as visitors, unless and until they repent. (*any who have divorced their husband or wife w/o Biblical cause and then remarried, will never be allowed to return to our congregation, just FYI)
.

Thanks, but I'm still left wondering if he told you that a sinner can be saved. If so, then can all kinds of sin attend a saved Christian such as adultery and theft? Or are some kinds of sin strictly endangering a person's salvation?

 

[Deuteronomy]

My pastor has actually told me that sinlessness is an effect of salvation (rather than a cause of salvation). In other words, the Holy Spirit's regeneration that takes place upon the moment of salvation is partly evidenced by sinlessness on the part of the "new creature." Regeneration is substantial and even measurable in a sense--people can literally see the change. If the person goes on sinning as before, then no substantial change has occurred.

Hello Unknown Soldier, I agree with your pastor, Biblically and personally/experientially (I was one way/one person for the first thirty years of my life, but I am and continue to be a very different way now/a very different person for the last 35+ years, since God caused me to be born again/made me alive in Christ/saved me/made me a new creature .. e.g. 2 Corinthians 5:17) .

That said, being PERFECTLY sinless as a believer is something that will not happen for any of us on this side of the grave. As I said in an earlier post, God tells us that He continues His mighty work in each of us (from justification to Glory .. e.g. Philippians 1:6, 2:12-13), to sanctify us/make us more and more Christlike (which basically means that we will sin less and less in this life and, on the flipside, choose to do the His will more and more ).

However, as we get closer to God/come to know Him better and better as believers, we should also begin to see how much further we have to go to truly be like Him (further than we ever thought or could have imagined that we did when we first came to saving faith).

Blessings to you in Christ!!

~Deuteronomy
p.s. - I agree with you that no discernable change(s) in a person who claims to have become a believer (e.g. - from living a sinful/impenitent lifestyle to one that is far more holy) is a sure sign that their "claim" is probably nothing more than that .. e.g. Matthew 7:22-23
.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Hello Unknown Soldier, I agree with your pastor, Biblically and personally/experientially (I was one way/one person for the first thirty years of my life, but I am and continue to be a very different way now/a very different person for the last 35+ years, since God caused me to be born again/made me alive in Christ/saved me/made me a new creature .. e.g. 2 Corinthians 5:17) .

That said, being PERFECTLY sinless as a believer is something that will not happen for any of us on this side of the grave. As I said in an earlier post, God tells us that He continues His mighty work in each of us (from justification to Glory .. e.g. Philippians 1:6, 2:12-13), to sanctify us/make us more and more Christlike (which basically means that we will sin less and less in this life and, on the flipside, choose to do the His will more and more ).

However, as we get closer to God/come to know Him better and better as believers, we should also begin to see how much further we have to go to truly be like Him (further than we ever thought or could have imagined that we did when we first came to saving faith).

Blessings to you in Christ!!

~Deuteronomy
p.s. - I agree with you that no discernable change(s) in a person who claims to have become a believer (e.g. - from living a sinful/impenitent lifestyle to one that is far more holy) is a sure sign that their "claim" is probably nothing more than that .. e.g. Matthew 7:22-23
.

You're not answering my questions. I can only then conclude that you simply cannot squarely face the issues. You are sinning, and you want to continue doing so hoping to be free of judgment nevertheless. Personally, I don't miss my sins one bit. The drugs and the prostitutes at best brought me a bit of fleeting pleasure. I'm happy being free of sin, and I hope you can be free of sin and happy too. It can be done.