John 15 Losing eternal life

[Howie]

Absolutely not.

How about you?

Absolutely, yes!

When I confess my sins, I give glory to Him because He is faithful and righteous, so that He will forgive me my sins and cleanse me from all unrighteousness. (1 Jn 1:9)

 

[Theo1689]

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All those whom God draws WILL be taught by God.
That's how God draws them.

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Who is sinless?

 

[Our Lord's God]

All those whom God draws WILL be taught by God.
That's how God draws them.

And?

Who is sinless?

Irrelevant to the point at hand.

 

[fltom]

The gospel is to be preached to all is correct.
There is no power in your preaching, the Power is within the gospel message, and the Power is the Holy Spirit.

My faith does not rest in the wisdom of the man (nor my own) that shared the gospel with me, nor does it rest in the eloquence of his speech, that may have convinced me.

My faith rests in the Power of God, and in demonstration of the Spirit.
God chose me, and saved me.

Tell us in what your faith rests so that we can discern your errors.
I know you say you chose to believe. So in what does your faith rest?

Is the Gospel not grace a work of the Holy Spirit?

why do you insist God's grace is insufficient

It is not biblical

Romans 1:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.



2 Timothy 3:15–17 (ESV) — 15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

1 Peter 1:18–23 (AV) — 18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV 1900) — 15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

James 1:18 (KJV 1900) — 18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

 

[Alexander the adequate]

You're joking, right? The word "lego" does not mean "let". Did you look it up? Although Strong's is far from the best Greek-English dictionary, it's good enough here.

[*StrongsGreek*]
3004 lego leg'-o a primary verb; properly, to "lay" forth, i.e. (figuratively) relate (in words (usually of systematic or set discourse; whereas 2036 and 5346 generally refer to an individual expression or speech respectively; while 4483 is properly to break silence merely, and 2980 means an extended or random harangue)); by implication, to mean:--ask, bid, boast, call, describe, give out, name, put forth, say(-ing, on), shew, speak, tell, utter.

No joking here. I use the Blue Letter Bible online and when it lists the Greek words in each verse, that is where I am seeing this

 

[Theo1689]

No joking here. I use the Blue Letter Bible online and when it lists the Greek words in each verse, that is where I am seeing this

Tell you what... Since you refuse to accept correction from people who can read Greek, even though you don't know the language at all, why don't you go to the Biblical Languages forum and ask them if either "lego" or "erchomai" mean "let". I'm sure they could use a good laugh.

 

[Howie]

So you decided here not to make any sense whatsoever.

?

You weren't asked about confessing your sins but about committing them. Want to try again?

Where I come from, we call that carping.

 

[Jack Terrence]

They don't.
Men don't put themselves in Christ.
God puts them in Christ.
He elects/chooses them from before the foundation of the world, before they'd done anything good or bad, not based on anything they'd done, and wrote their names in the book of life.

Actually, Paul said that we are included in Christ and marked in Him when we believe.

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, verse 13

The expression "before the foundation of the world" in verse 4 means "according to the pre-arranged plan." The word "kataboles" with "kosmos" means "pre-arranged plan."

So, in verse 4 Paul is saying that God chose us in him according to the pre-arranged plan which in verse 13 is explained to be the hearing the gospel message and believing it.

 

[Theo1689]

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, verse 13

Wow, that's a really BAD translation.

Eph. 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

This does NOT say you aren't "in Christ" only "when you heard the word of truth", etc.

It says (being) "in him", you "were sealed with the Holy Spirit"
When were you sealed?
"when you heard the word of truth, and believed in him".

Election happened from before the foundation of the world.
Belief and sealing happen during our lifetime.

The expression "before the foundation of the world" in verse 4 means "according to the pre-arranged plan." The word "kataboles" with "kosmos" means "pre-arranged plan."

Really?!
What lexicon are YOU using?

"καταβολη" - "foundation"

"κοσμος" - "world"

But as per usual, anti-Calvinists have to REDEFINE terms in order to deny what the Bible teaches.

 

[Alexander the adequate]

At least you reply, but you are not responding to my arguments.

I find this to be a tactic to minimize the Biblical argument made. In these vague responses you are moving further and further away from the original argument made, and you have not confirmed that my exegesis of passages is either right or wrong.

For example:
You write above:
"Why dont all come who are aware of the light. John 3:20 they don't want their evil deeds exposed. That is the simple answer. They see the light but want to hide in darkness. Do you see something different in John 3:20?"
I already answered this in my previous post, but let me elaborate:

Why would someone who understands the Light not Come is a logical question, and already answers you. However in your mind you equate "aware" with "understand"

I believe Romans 1 when it states no one will have an excuse, and all are aware of God. Romans 1 never claims all understands, and neither does John 3:20
That which is flesh is flesh.
That has meaning. Jesus said it for a reason. Those in the flesh, do not understand except to be aware of God, and that awareness makes them ashamed of their sin, even if they will never admit it.
Atheists are aware that there is a God, they will never admit it, because it will expose their sin to themselves.
However, if an Atheist were to receive full revelation that Jesus Christ is his/her Lord and Savior, then there is a conviction (cutting of the heart) that leads to repentance, and obedience to the indwelling Spirit.

So in response, I would at least expect you to acknowledge what I wrote above, and rebut it with scripture where you do not agree.


Where on earth do you come up with "revelation comes by faith"

That is an oxymoron.
We are going around in circles.
My position is that faith comes because of revelation. How you still do not understand this is unclear to me.

Thinking about it, the answer is "because you are not actually reading what I am writing" you are merely trying to obfuscate.

I can only hope however that the lurkers that may be reading these posts can see this for what it is as well.
Joh 3:20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.

As to your assertion I highlighted above, you are adding something (your premise) to that scripture. Nowhere in either John 3:2 or 3:20 does it say those who are taught about the light don't come.


Yet you have shown that either your studies are limited (Saying the context of 1 Cor 2 is about baby Christians) or you are just not dilligently seeking for the truth outside of your view.

You have alluded to some scriptures, and tried to force the idea that spiritually dead and corrupt people do indeed understand Supernaturally, and that because of these supernatural understanding they can choose to believe what they believe or choose to not believe what they believe.

These arguments you have failed to address once. You rather choose to believe that a biblical statement that says unbelievers cannot understand the spiritual, means not unbelievers, but baby christians.


Can you now acknowledge that unbelievers who are in the flesh/natural man cannot understand Spiritual/Supernatural things or not?

If not, why not?

you ask why I say revelation comes by faith, This is Hebrews 11, "By faith we understand."

 

[Theo1689]

You weren't asked about confessing your sins but about committing them. Want to try again?

So you think we confess sins that we don't commit?

 

[Theo1689]

The question was whether one glorifies God by sinning. Want to try again?

Why would you ask such a ridiculous question?

I have a strange feeling you're trying to steer us in a direction where you can try to falsely claim that "Calvinists love to sin, and they justify their sin by claiming it glorifies God."

Well, allow me to disabuse you of that notion...

Rom. 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

Now why don't you explain to us why you're asking the question in the first place.
And for that matter, why don't YOU answer your own question, do YOU think one glorifies God by sinning?

 

[Manfred]

I will try to get back to your post later today, but I will make one note. When you seem to be unable to understand what I write and reconcile it with scrupture. you claim I am intentionally obscuring truth. Since I can tell you without reservation that I am not intentionally obscuring anything, you are off track about me, and are simply accusing me wrongly and that is because your doctrine hides the truth that I am exposing

You have not exposed anything friend.

Give one example, only one?

You by your own admission have selective reading and then think you have made any valid points.

When will you admit that 1 Cor2 is NOT talking about baby Christians as you put it?
You think I am trying to hide from nonsense like that!

At least the lurkers will be able to see for themselves.

 

[Manfred]

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All those who are taught by God WILL come.
You like all the others create the same oxymoron.

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God is in control, not you. You can sin as much as you want by listening to your Father the Devil.
You seem to think that God is unaware of your schemes and deceit, and learns about it as you make your evil plans.
God allows every sin, He is God and not a mere man.

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Nonsense, and your claims are bogus. Many left Him because they were merely after the physical bread and fish that he supplied.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
Rom 11:8 as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”

Where is your scriptural support for all your bogus claims?

You seem to think that asking mindless questions of premises made up in your mind gives you some sort argument. It really does not.

 

[Manfred]

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What does this even mean?

When the gospel is preached, some who hear believe and some do not. I say because the Holy Spirit reveals Jesus Christ in that time to some and not to others.

God gives grace to some and not others.
Therefore He will have mercy and compassion on who He will have mercy and compassion.

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I don't. Stop lying. His saving grace is sufficient to those to whom He extends it.
Therefore He will have mercy and compassion on who He will have mercy and compassion

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Your interpretation of scripture is not Holy Spirit inspired but comes from the recesses of your murky mind.
And those who believe as per Romans 1:16 are those Jesus talks about in John 6. Those who the Father draws to the Son. Those that will be raised.

Why not come straight out and show how you are reading freedom of choice into Romans 1:16, for it is clear as day you are doing that.

Why do you not believe God!
Those who believe are those drawn to Jesus by God the Father. Those to whom He wills to have mercy and compassion.

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And?
When did God start drawing Timothy toward the Son.
Your argument is moot.

It is obvious that Timothy was drawn to the Son from childhood, and that God willed to have mercy and compassion on him.

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Verse 21:
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Even in the verses you post it is abundantly clear that it is by God and not man.

for what reason did you post these scriptures?
You never mentioned what it is you are trying to communicate by these scriptures. What are we supposed to learn from these I wonder.

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Again I cannot speak for you. what are you trying to communicate with this scripture?

Are you trying to communicate that Paul is the savior of the Corinthians. That the power of the Gospel lay in His preaching of it through eloquence and wisdom. What?

Throwing scripture around, without trying to make a point and me having to guess what you are trying to communicate through those scriptures is just to arduous

 

[Manfred]

you ask why I say revelation comes by faith, This is Hebrews 11, "By faith we understand."

You have to do better.

Who is we that understand by faith.

Read Hebrews 11 again, When do you have faith according to verse 1.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

When you were an Atheist, when did you ever have assurance or hope in Jesus Christ that could produce faith!

When you heard the gospel, and you received revelation that Christ is your Lord and Savior, could you then have conviction and the assurance of the hope that was now revealed to you.

If not, then you need to explain how you came by this conviction and assurance, of that which you now hope for. (I will hold you to this. You need to explain this)

Once you have faith, you can understand. Before you have faith, you HATE God.

 

[Manfred]

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I asked you to stop lying about me.

I said very clearly that it is sufficient and applied to those on whom God wills to have mercy and compassion.

You are trying to attribute a big fat lie to me, and you should get over yourself.

You can either acknowledge what I am saying and try and disprove that, or pretend that I am saying something else.

Here it is again:

When the gospel is preached, Jesus Christ is revealed to some of the hearers, as being their Lord and Savior.
This revelation is by the Grace of God, and to those whom the Father is drawing to the Son. Those who will be raised on the last day.

The receivers of the revelation are those who God wills to have mercy and compassion on, and they are convicted (cut to the heart) and are obedient in repentance etc. They are born again. (Your assertion that those who He chooses to have mercy and compassion on are those who choose to believe in Him is another blatant falsehood and completely opposite to scripture. It shows how desperate you are in your attempts to utterly undermine and distort scripture. He says, that God's mercy and compassion is NEVER dependent on the human will or on exertions of man, and you say it is ALWAYS dependent on the human will. You not me DISTORT scripture. And you can deal with that)

If you cannot acknowledge that I believe God's grace is sufficient for those whom He wills to have mercy and compassion on, then your argument is not against me but yourself and the ideas made up in the recesses of your murky mind.

If you want to show me biblically that His salvific grace is directed to every single person on earth and that He does draw every single person effectively, then prove that all are saved.

This is why you absolutely HATE the sovereignty of God and try and change the meaning into something else, where sovereign is no longer sovereign, but degrees of sovereignty exist and all sorts of other claptrap.

So deal with your own misconceptions and falsehoods, before you try and project them unto others.
You cannot even deal with your own oxymoronic ideas that all people do believe effectively but choose not to believe, or if they do not choose not to believe then God is forced to blind them to the truth.

 

[Alexander the adequate]

You have not exposed anything friend.

Give one example, only one?

You by your own admission have selective reading and then think you have made any valid points.

When will you admit that 1 Cor2 is NOT talking about baby Christians as you put it?
You think I am trying to hide from nonsense like that!

At least the lurkers will be able to see for themselves.

! Cor 2 is absolutely directed to Christians on milk. I have looked at it but can't see it your way, the context does not support you.
One thing I would grant you is that baby Christians can act like unbelievers

 

[Alexander the adequate]

You have to do better.

Who is we that understand by faith.

Read Hebrews 11 again, When do you have faith according to verse 1.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

When you were an Atheist, when did you ever have assurance or hope in Jesus Christ that could produce faith!

When you heard the gospel, and you received revelation that Christ is your Lord and Savior, could you then have conviction and the assurance of the hope that was now revealed to you.

If not, then you need to explain how you came by this conviction and assurance, of that which you now hope for. (I will hold you to this. You need to explain this)

Once you have faith, you can understand. Before you have faith, you HATE God.

The statement stands. We understand by faith. It does not matter who it applies to. the concept is black and white.
God gives everyone a measure of faith, by which we can understand Him enough to receive Him

 

[Our Lord's God]

! Cor 2 is absolutely directed to Christians on milk.

Yes. Paul is instructing Christians on milk what it looks like to feed on solid food.

They were appealing to the theological wisdom of men such as Paul and Peter rather than the teachings of God in the Spirit.

I have looked at it but can't see it your way, the context does not support you.
One thing I would grant you is that baby Christians can act like unbelievers