When does one's Predestination start?

Josheb said:
Can we amend that to change "accompany" to say something like "co-occur" or "coincide" or "are inherent with" so as not to give the impression a person can be saved but not also have all the many conditions co-occurring with having been regenerate and brought from death to life? No one who is regenerated is not also sanctified. Everyone who is saved has also been called, chosen, justified, etc. While it is true a person can be called and not chose and Christ's work is sufficient justification for all even if God does not save them, there isn't anyone who is actually saved who doesn't have the whole package.
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I suppose you can state it the way you are choosing. But I would note I think we should specify the difference between those ideas that are in effect elements of salvation, and those which are benefits of salvation. Both could be spoken of as accompanying, but not as "co-occuring" For instance: our receiving our inheritance, accompanies salvation but does not co-occur in time with it,
 
Josheb said:
.... truth is our being "in Christ" is like our being saved. We are saved we are being saved and we will be saved. Scripture uses all three tenses. It also does so within the inescapable context of our salvation being in Christ ....
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because Sin brings death. therefore, to believe on perfection / life (Jesus Christ) is to believe / follow / want to become -- more perfected / full of Life.

if you / we do not pick up our cross (es), we are not worthy of Him (not worthy of life / are not overcoming death) .........

but / however......... God is wanting to / helping Any who have / or are turning to Him / believing -- in Him (Life , lack of Sin) also = believing in / on His Son (we walk by Faith / anything not done in faith -- is Sin = death / missing each Mark, on the Way [of Christ] - to Life).

these are Complicated concepts / truths though, that one must "Work out" -- in themselves (the temple of God) -- with God's help (of course), and / also with many Helps in life that God 'sends' / 'Shows', and with the help of other Believers.
 
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Synergy said:
Please forward the verse that says "God predestined before the the foundation of the world."

I never said that. Stop misrepresenting me.

Please forward verse says that.

Because the Ephesian audience were the "faithful in Christ Jesus" who believed the Word of Truth, were sealed with the Holy Spirit, and are NOW "in Christ Jesus":

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus.

Eph 1:13 in whom also you, hearing the Word of Truth, the gospel of our salvation, in whom also believing, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 2:13 But NOW in Christ Jesus you who were once afar off are made near by the blood of Christ.

It sounds like that to you because your mind is flooded with Calvinistic presuppositions.

You need to prove that "beforehand" equates to "before the foundation of the world" and that "prepared beforehand" equates to "predestination".

You won't like my answer.
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Most don’t like hearing the truth but having their itchy ears tickled by the doctrines of men.
 
Reformedguy said:
You did not address my point. Let me repeat myself at least for the lurkers. If God prepares beforehand or preordains is it predestined to occur? Prime example, Acts 4:27,28
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Since neither Jesus nor the Cross, which was foreknown and predetermined to occur before the foundation of the world, need to be predestined to inheritance, adoption, and conformity to Christ then the answer to your question is no.
 
Howie said:
Oh for heaven's sake, buy a thesaurus.
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I already showed you the Strong translation of προετοιμάζω and it's not predestine. You my friend need to learn some Koine Greek.
Howie said:
And you have yet to produce a verse that says we were not predestined to be saved.
So much for your argument from silence fallacy.
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You're the one who claims that we are predestined to be saved. You need to do that. I'm still waiting for that verse 14 pages into this thread.
 
Iconoclast said:
Obviously you do not see it.Your posts show this.You have no idea what you are looking at because you fragment what is written.Every single verse does have to contain every.word .

Every verse does not have to say....born again,repent,predestined,elect,called, for these truths to be,just because you are spiritually blind.
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I'm not asking for every single verse to contain every word. I'm just asking for ONE Bible verse that declares that we are predestined to be saved. Just one and no one has been able to deliver that one single verse.
 
Synergy said:
I'm not asking for every single verse to contain every word. I'm just asking for ONE Bible verse that declares that we are predestined to be saved. Just one and no one has been able to deliver that one single verse.
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I wish you the best of luck :)
 
Josheb said:
You do not get to make up the rules.

I was not the only one who showed you the many verses pertaining to work that had occurred prior to our conversion, many of them this op left out. This op argues from a limited selection of verses and the ensuing discussion demonstrated a willful refusal to consider whole scripture.

You don't get to make the rules. God does.
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I'm the one who cited the verses saying that good works are preordained. Your problem is that you cannot use those verse for predestination because good works are not predestined for inheritance, adoption, and conformity to Christ.
 
Alexander the adequate said:
Before I responded to you, I had gone thru much of the chat between you two, But even though I am mostly in agreement with you, I have been unable to follow exactly what distinction you are trying to make bewteen "foreordain" and "predestine"
Maybe a list would help?
List things that are pre(fore)ordained and spearately list things that are predestined.
I am honestly trying to understand your position
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I'm in the process of plotting out who/what God predetermines, calls, preordains, elects, and predestines according to the Bible, stripped of all Calvinistic presuppositions. I'll post something hopefully soon.
 
Synergy said:
I'm in the process of plotting out who/what God predetermines, calls, preordains, elects, and predestines according to the Bible, stripped of all Calvinistic presuppositions. I'll post something hopefully soon.
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I can’t wait ??
 
Alexander the adequate said:
Note that it is truth to state the Bible has no verses that predestine salvation, or preordain salvation. Instead it speaks that way of those things that accompany salvation. For example: No one is predestined to believe, but those who believe are predestined to have new bodies.
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Actually, Paul was real big on being grafted into the vine.

But yes ..... but Paul's diatribe is kind of rough.
 
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Josheb said:
Sophistry.

Since there is no destiny without having been called (and chosen, and regenerate, and sanctified, and..., and..., and ALL the other components NECESSARY for salvation) the predestined is there for you to see when you're ready and willing. There is no destiny apart from the purpose of our salvation, either. I have already specifically covered this. The purpose of our salvation was decided before the world began. Not only was the purpose of our salvation decided before the world began but according to Ephesians 1:10 every single one of us is being created in Christ for works God had already planned for us to perform. Pre-existing purpose, a pre-existing plan of works, (pre-)decided upon before God saved any of us.
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So you're going to hitch our salvation to Eph 2:10 which talks about good works being preordained. Seriously? You just crossed back to the RCC. You are getting desperate.
Josheb said:
Something important has occurred. This op starts off with interpretive views of scripture. As the thread unfolded several posters have provided some very explicit statements from scripture that confront the interpretation(s). One of the core flaws appears to be the temporal orientation to the exclusion of the divine or eternal. You've tried to dismiss it with the label "spiritual" as if the matter is being allegorized but that completely ignores the facts of the blunt verse provided and now in evidence. Adjust your views to become theo-centric and not human-centric.
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We are in fact saved in temporal time. You appeal to Platonism is another sign of desperation.

2Co 6:2 (For He says, "In an acceptable time I heard you, and in a day of salvation, I helped you;" Behold, now is the accepted time. Behold, now is the day of salvation.)
Josheb said:
Try considering that the "bottom line," and "the rule that governs our lives" because finite time and space do not govern our lives. God does. God is not bound by anything He created, not even time and space and that is always and everywhere the global context for all of scripture. The word, "predestined" is all about exceeding specific points in time or specific causes and their effects. We had a destiny before we were saved. We just didn't know it.
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Now you're appealing to a Hindu-like enlightenment that needs discovering.
Josheb said:
Our learning of it is not when it began any more than the point at which we took it on defines its beginning in Christ.
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Our Predestination starts when we believe "in Christ" and are placed "in Christ".
Josheb said:
No spiritualizing required.

The truth is our being "in Christ" is like our being saved.
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Once we are saved then we are placed "in Christ". Before that you were "without Christ", unsaved in other words.
Josheb said:
We are saved we are being saved and we will be saved. Scripture uses all three tenses. It also does so within the inescapable context of our salvation being in Christ, in the one who was foreknown before the world was created as the perfect sacrifice. There has never been a moment anywhere or anytime in creation when Jesus was not the resurrection and the life. If only one person were to be resurrected that person's destiny ALWAYS existed in Christ, in the perfect sacrifice, in what for us temporally was a pending resurrection but for Christ was a fait accompli. God knew who that person would be because He chose him, called him, gave him an already decided upon purpose containing already assigned works............... before the world began.
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God chose us "in Him" before the foundation of the world. Only when we are "in Christ" (saved) are we chosen before the foundation of the world. I created a thread for that called "In Christ" Question for Calvinists.
 
Alexander the adequate said:
Not to me, but it would be to a hyper calvinist
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I tagged you in this thread by a calvinist teacher, pastor , preacher on what the definition of hyper means

  - Hyper Calvinism defined

Phil Johnson, who has done extensive research on this subject very helpfully defines hyper-Calvinists using a five-fold definition. A hyper-Calvinist is one who: Denies that the gospel call applies to all who hear, OR Denies that faith is the duty of every sinner, OR Denies that the gospel...
forums.carm.org
 
Chalcedon said:
I tagged you in this thread by a calvinist teacher, pastor , preacher on what the definition of hyper means

  - Hyper Calvinism defined

Phil Johnson, who has done extensive research on this subject very helpfully defines hyper-Calvinists using a five-fold definition. A hyper-Calvinist is one who: Denies that the gospel call applies to all who hear, OR Denies that faith is the duty of every sinner, OR Denies that the gospel...
forums.carm.org
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thanks I went and read those 5 points
 
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