Foreknowing and foreknowledge

[christ_undivided]

Again, unless you consider yourself more of an expert that those translators, adding in the Revised and the English Version and whatever English versions you like, then for you to claim ALL those translators are getting it wrong is delusional

Still no link. Why not share the link? You said you had already dealt with the differences. IF it exists, provide the link.

Did you know that English word foreknowledge has no root in any historical biblical language?

foreknowledge | Etymology, origin and meaning of foreknowledge by etymonline

FOREKNOWLEDGE Meaning: "prescience," 1530s, from fore- + knowledge. Earlier in this sense was foreknowing (late 14c.), from… See origin and meaning of foreknowledge.

www.etymonline.com

ZERO....

Like I said. Our English sensibilities should not flavor our belief in what the Scriptures teach. Your appeal to English is ridiculous. It often takes more than one word in English to properly express the language of the Scriptures.

 

[christ_undivided]

I had to laugh when you are expressing the idea that a person asking to be saved is not being self-centered,

False dishonest rhetoric from you. I never said such a thing. Laugh all you will. God has the record.

I said you were self centered in what you said in return to comments on how you would treat your wife if she did the same. You built a strawman that proved your self centered views.

 

[Theo1689]

Again, unless you consider yourself more of an expert that those translators, adding in the Revised and the English Version and whatever English versions you like, then for you to claim ALL those translators are getting it wrong is delusional

Nobody is claiming that "ALL those translators are getting it wrong".
That's YOUR straw-man, so please lose it.
The translators got it right. The used the correct gloss.

What YOU got wrong (since you are 100% ignorant of Koine Greek) is that you deny the DEFINITION of the gloss the translators got RIGHT.

 

[Theo1689]

Still no link. Why not share the link? You said you had already dealt with the differences. IF it exists, provide the link.

Did you know that English word foreknowledge has no root in any historical biblical language?

Yep.
His error is in denying the original Greek meaning in favour of the modern English meaning.
Why?
Because his false theology REQUIRES it.

 

[christ_undivided]

But if you are a determinist, by which I assume you mean predeterminist, then how does softness come into play? Does that mean the is some libertarianism?

Compatibilism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

The future is open and didn't happen yet ie doesn't exist to foreknow. God created only the progressive present. God knows the future like tossing two dice that happen to roll doubles, one a prediction, one the eventual turn-out. There is no inter-infuence. God is miraculous. When we say God looks into the future it means He looks into a prediction that miraculously turns out correct. God miraculously can't err. But the miracle is part of God's nature.

Open Theism. At least a flavor of it.

Did God roll the dice with Calvary?

 

[Kampioen]

False dishonest rhetoric from you. I never said such a thing. Laugh all you will. God has the record.

I said you were self centered in what you said in return to comments on how you would treat your wife if she did the same. You built a strawman that proved your self centered views.

Why would God keep a record on us as if we intentionally libertarianly did it if God unconditionally predetermined we would do it?

 

[christ_undivided]

Why would God keep a record on us as if we intentionally libertarianly did it if God unconditionally predetermined we would do it?

Did you read the reference I gave you about soft determinism?

I thought we might have a good dialogue between us. One where we both answer each other's questions. I've tried to answer your questions. You seem to want to ignore some important aspects of our existence.

 

[Alexander the adequate]

Still no link. Why not share the link? You said you had already dealt with the differences. IF it exists, provide the link.

Did you know that English word foreknowledge has no root in any historical biblical language?

foreknowledge | Etymology, origin and meaning of foreknowledge by etymonline

FOREKNOWLEDGE Meaning: "prescience," 1530s, from fore- + knowledge. Earlier in this sense was foreknowing (late 14c.), from… See origin and meaning of foreknowledge.

www.etymonline.com

ZERO....

Like I said. Our English sensibilities should not flavor our belief in what the Scriptures teach. Your appeal to English is ridiculous. It often takes more than one word in English to properly express the language of the Scriptures.

I am making NO APPEAL to English. Why is this so difficult to grasp? My appeal was to the translators choice of words to express the Greek. The translators had an understanding of what the Greek meant, and they express THAT meaning the best they can in English.

 

[Kampioen]

Compatibilism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

That is a lot of reading with a lot of variations.

Which view would you describe as soft compatibilism? The article doesn't mention the term soft determininism in particular that I could see but I'm sure one of them is.

Is soft predeterminism unconditionally meticulous?

Does compatibilism or soft compatibilism involve synergism or Molinism or libertarianism in any way or minor way? If so, how?

Open Theism. At least a flavor of it.

Did God roll the dice with Calvary?

Yes it is related to open Theism but with incidental meticulous foreknowledge.

Calvary along with many things was predetermined but not meticulously.

 

[christ_undivided]

I am making NO APPEAL to English.

You are using an English definition. To say you are making no appeal to English is bordering upon delusional.

Why is this so difficult to grasp?

I don't desire to call it what it is. You're being delusional.

My appeal was to the translators choice of words to express the Greek. The translators had an understanding of what the Greek meant, and they express THAT meaning the best they can in English.

How many times have you said that now without dealing with what we've said in return.

The historical context of the English word "foreknowledge" is not based in any biblical language. As such there is not one single English word that is a direct derivative of the Greek source in English.

Do you know what derivative means?

The lack of a direct correlation to the Greek source into English means that we must piece together the information.

That is why I appealed to its usage in Romans 11.

Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

Which directly correlates foreknew with reservation. Those reserved that had not bowed the knee. Which is purpose.

Now go ahead and repeat yourself again.

BTW. Dr. Newman translates the Greek source as chosen. in the CEV which comes from the American Bible Society. From which we get the GNB. Which also translates the source as "chosen".

So there you go. You have translators that have made a different choice. Stop pretending.

 

[christ_undivided]

That is a lot of reading with a lot of variations.

Which view would you describe as soft compatibilism? The article doesn't mention the term soft determininism in particular that I could see but I'm sure one of them is.

Is soft predeterminism unconditionally meticulous?

I believe my position is compatible with soft determinism. I do disagree with some in some minor areas but my position is historically defined by others before me. I'm not going to get into too many details until I see a rational answer from you on what you believe.

Yes it is related to open Theism but with incidental meticulous foreknowledge.

Calvary along with many things was predetermined but not meticulously.

I don't believe this is compatible with Arminianism. I know that many argue that Open Theism is usually represented by Armimians but I disagree somewhat in that determination. I don't believe Open Theism has settled yet. It is a position that seeks to limit God's own choice to what is "right in front of Him".

I'm not willing to do this.

I'd like to know more about this "incidental meticulous" oxymoron you've fabricated. I know you've said a few things about it but it really seems to be an attempt to blend "oil and water".

Let me come at this a different way,

Do you believe we are complicated creatures? Creatures too complicated for God to discern/know us? I've mentioned this before to Atheists but do you know what "Chaos theory" is?

Thanks

 

[Kampioen]

I'd like to know more about this "incidental meticulous" oxymoron

I find the term oxymoron toxic. All it does is provoke me to respond in kind. I consider predeterminism an oxymoron.

However I will respond to your post.

 

[Alexander the adequate]

You are using an English definition. To say you are making no appeal to English is bordering upon delusional.



I don't desire to call it what it is. You're being delusional.



How many times have you said that now without dealing with what we've said in return.

The historical context of the English word "foreknowledge" is not based in any biblical language. As such there is not one single English word that is a direct derivative of the Greek source in English.

Do you know what derivative means?

The lack of a direct correlation to the Greek source into English means that we must piece together the information.

That is why I appealed to its usage in Romans 11.

Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

Which directly correlates foreknew with reservation. Those reserved that had not bowed the knee. Which is purpose.

Now go ahead and repeat yourself again.

BTW. Dr. Newman translates the Greek source as chosen. in the CEV which comes from the American Bible Society. From which we get the GNB. Which also translates the source as "chosen".

So there you go. You have translators that have made a different choice. Stop pretending.

CEV? That's a new one to me. What do the letters stand for and how trustworthy is it to Christian scholars as a whole?
And yes I know what it means that a word is derived from another lnguage, a large part of English comes from other sources. but that is irrelevent to my issue: the meaning of the Greek word. I have never stated in this thread that the definition of the English word was at issue. But you keep thinking I am talking about the English word's definition. Why?

The issue is the meaning of the Greek word, not the derivation of the English word. There is no correlation between those two ideas.
Once you know what the Greek word means, then you translate it using what you understand to be most accurate,
I know you don't want me to repeat myself, but if you are unable to acknowledge this straightforward idea, I am not sure what to say other than just be silent

 

[christ_undivided]

CEV? That's a new one to me. What do the letters stand for and how trustworthy is it to Christian scholars as a whole?
And yes I know what it means that a word is derived from another lnguage, a large part of English comes from other sources. but that is irrelevent to my issue: the meaning of the Greek word. I have never stated in this thread that the definition of the English word was at issue. But you keep thinking I am talking about the English word's definition. Why?

Delusional.....You where just saying that the translators choose a perfect English word. You're back to Sethisms.

The issue is the meaning of the Greek word, not the derivation of the English word. There is no correlation between those two ideas.
Once you know what the Greek word means, then you translate it using what you understand to be most accurate,
I know you don't want me to repeat myself, but if you are unable to acknowledge this straightforward idea, I am not sure what to say other than just be silent

Multiple people have told you what the Greek word means. I have given you references. Yet, you're being delusional in ignoring those references. You are divorced from realty if you think you haven't been.

I gave you reference to where the CEV and the GNB came from. Yet, here you are being delusional in asking if they are trustworthy sources. I grow tired of your games. These are same tactics you used in the Trinity forum for years. I have no desire to deal with you anymore.

 

[christ_undivided]

I find the term oxymoron toxic. All it does is provoke me to respond in kind. I consider predeterminism an oxymoron.

However I will respond to your post.

It might be toxic to you. I believe it is a fair expression when you combine incidental and meticulous together. Incidental carries the connotation of lacking detail. Meticulous deals with extreme details. Please show me where I am wrong.

 

[Theo1689]

And yes I know what it means that a word is derived from another lnguage, a large part of English comes from other sources. but that is irrelevent to my issue: the meaning of the Greek word. I have never stated in this thread that the definition of the English word was at issue. But you keep thinking I am talking about the English word's definition. Why?

Because you continue to IGNORE the Greek meaning from the lexicon, and instead replace it with the modern English connotation.

That's why.

I know you don't want me to repeat myself, but if you are unable to acknowledge this straightforward idea, I am not sure what to say other than just be silent

Since YOU are the one who ignores the Greek lexical meaning in favour of the modern English meaning, I think YOU should "just be silent". Nobody is interested in reading your garbage.

 

[Kampioen]

It might be toxic to you. I believe it is a fair expression when you combine incidental and meticulous together. Incidental carries the connotation of lacking detail. Meticulous deals with extreme details. Please show me where I am wrong.

I consider unconditional meticulous predetermination an oxymoron as well. But I will answer your previous main post.

 

[Alexander the adequate]

Delusional.....You where just saying that the translators choose a perfect English word. You're back to Sethisms.



Multiple people have told you what the Greek word means. I have given you references. Yet, you're being delusional in ignoring those references. You are divorced from realty if you think you haven't been.

I gave you reference to where the CEV and the GNB came from. Yet, here you are being delusional in asking if they are trustworthy sources. I grow tired of your games. These are same tactics you used in the Trinity forum for years. I have no desire to deal with you anymore.

First of all you have me confused with someone else. I don't post in the trinity forums. Or if I have it would have been an odd post here and there. This forum is where I do the majority of my posting
And I still am surprised at your inability to read my posts and just make up stuff I am not saying.
I never said anything about choosing a perfect word. Are you sure you are even reading what you are responding to?
And again and again, I have not argued against the meaning of the Greek word. I have already told you this several times. No wonder you think I am delusional; you are not actually reading my posts. My argument has been about using the right meaning of a word in context. CONTEXT. I don't recall in the midst of your railings against me personally that you ever responded to what i was actually talking about, context.

 

[Alexander the adequate]

Because you continue to IGNORE the Greek meaning from the lexicon, and instead replace it with the modern English connotation.

That's why.



Since YOU are the one who ignores the Greek lexical meaning in favour of the modern English meaning, I think YOU should "just be silent". Nobody is interested in reading your garbage.

Really. you are wanting to silence me?

 

[Theo1689]

Really. you are wanting to silence me?

Really?
You told ANOTHER poster to "just remain silent", and that's apparently perfectly fine, but when I throw your words back in your face, you feign offense?

Why do you play these stupid games?