Can a convertible "deconvert" into a basic sedan? Can the 4th letter of the alphabet D-convert to the letter C?

stiggy wiggy said:
Do you have a brother or a sister? If so, do you believe in their existence because of "the information and understanding" that you have received or because you have experienced their reality? Do you consider it even possible that someone can "explain to you a different way of understanding" all those experiences "based upon other information that you think makes more sense?" If so, you have a very weak and strange sense of reality. If not, then you may have an inkling of the degree of perceived reality in my own experience with the Living God.
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What if your brother/sister had always been a bit of an A-hole toward you. You might think that that is just the way it is sometimes.
What if you then found out that they weren't actually your brother/sister? All of those interactions you shared would now be thrown into a whole new light. So, yes you have experience their reality but now the whole framework for evaluating those interactions has changed.
What if you found out that your experience with "the Living God" was all just a product of your own imagination?
 
Tiburon said:
What if your brother/sister had always been a bit of an A-hole toward you. You might think that that is just the way it is sometimes.
What if you then found out that they weren't actually your brother/sister? All of those interactions you shared would now be thrown into a whole new light. So, yes you have experience their reality but now the whole framework for evaluating those interactions has changed.
What if you found out that your experience with "the Living God" was all just a product of your own imagination?
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Nothing has changed here. I ask YOU: What if indeed you "found out" that your beloved wife from whom you had experienced nothing but love was secretly an A-hole who hated your guts? I cannot admit that possibility with my wife.
 
stiggy wiggy said:
Nothing has changed here. I ask YOU: What if indeed you "found out" that your beloved wife from whom you had experienced nothing but love was secretly an A-hole who hated your guts? I cannot admit that possibility with my wife.
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Ah Stig you're missing the point. Maybe intentionally.
 
Tiburon said:
What if your brother/sister had always been a bit of an A-hole toward you. You might think that that is just the way it is sometimes.
What if you then found out that they weren't actually your brother/sister? All of those interactions you shared would now be thrown into a whole new light. So, yes you have experience their reality but now the whole framework for evaluating those interactions has changed.
What if you found out that your experience with "the Living God" was all just a product of your own imagination?
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We could raise a similar argument that non theists are deceived by evil spirits. They are deluded into thinking that God is not real. Their minds are darkened so that they only see the material world and are completely oblivious to the unseen spiritual world which interacts with the natural world to cause either good or evil.
 
Caroljeen said:
I want to talk about what the bible says on this subject, but I won't.

I have a friend who was converted but has lapsed back into sin though she still believes in God. What would you call her?
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Lapsed back into rejecting Christ?

Can a man boot the Spirit out? Does God repent of what He gave? I don't think so. Believers pass on from death to life. I see nothing in scripture saying they face death, again.

One on the nicest guys I've met was a hopeless alcoholic who loved the Lord. He has passed at a youngish age but his salvation was never in question to me anyway.

I wouldn't talk about it with this crowd, probably. But it could be edifying for everyone, who knows?
 
Caroljeen said:
We could raise a similar argument that non theists are deceived by evil spirits. They are deluded into thinking that God is not real. Their minds are darkened so that they only see the material world and are completely oblivious to the unseen spiritual world which interacts with the natural world to cause either good or evil.
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This would be less an argument, than an assertion.

If true, you couldn't convince us of it - we are deceived.
If false, you couldn't convince us of it because... well, it's false.
 
Caroljeen said:
We could raise a similar argument that non theists are deceived by evil spirits. They are deluded into thinking that God is not real. Their minds are darkened so that they only see the material world and are completely oblivious to the unseen spiritual world which interacts with the natural world to cause either good or evil.
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You could very well do that. Do you have evidence that that is the case? Not that I would be able to see it if I were deceived by evil spirits. Would that argument do anything more than provide an excuse for why some people find your belief unconvincing? It would seem to be another variation on the "spiritual blindness" argument.
In what ways do you see the spiritual world interacting with the natural world (material world).
 
stiggy wiggy said:
Nothing has changed here. I ask YOU: What if indeed you "found out" that your beloved wife from whom you had experienced nothing but love was secretly an A-hole who hated your guts? I cannot admit that possibility with my wife.
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Not what I was saying at all but that you "cannot admit that possibility" affects nothing.
 
Tiburon said:
You could very well do that. Do you have evidence that that is the case? Not that I would be able to see it if I were deceived by evil spirits. Would that argument do anything more than provide an excuse for why some people find your belief unconvincing? It would seem to be another variation on the "spiritual blindness" argument.
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No, I don't have the type of evidence that you want. I'm sure my argument for the evil of this world, a malignant intelligent spirit and his army of fallen angels, is unconvincing and laughable to you.

I've seen and felt the presence of evil spirits. Many people who are involved in the occult are acquainted with them. As long as the powers of darkness have you deceived into believing that God does not exist, they will not likely be seen by you unless you seek after them. They have you right where they want you...far from God.
Tiburon said:
In what ways do you see the spiritual world interacting with the natural world (material world).
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Any evil in the world, the dark spiritual side is the cause of it whether secondary or primary. Contrarywise, any good in the world, comes from God.
 
Caroljeen said:
No, I don't have the type of evidence that you want. I'm sure my argument for the evil of this world, a malignant intelligent spirit and his army of fallen angels, is unconvincing and laughable to you.

I've seen and felt the presence of evil spirits. Many people who are involved in the occult are acquainted with them. As long as the powers of darkness have you deceived into believing that God does not exist, they will not likely be seen by you unless you seek after them. They have you right where they want you...far from God.

Any evil in the world, the dark spiritual side is the cause of it whether secondary or primary. Contrarywise, any good in the world, comes from God.
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When deception is on the table as a possibility for one, it's a possibility for all. If anyone was deceived by evil spirits, how would they know? Maybe you are being deceived.

Is it possible, rightly or wrongly, to think the evidence for God is not enough to warrant belief whilst not being deceived?
 
Caroljeen said:
Any evil in the world, the dark spiritual side is the cause of it whether secondary or primary. Contrarywise, any good in the world, comes from God.
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Any evil in the world, apart from what might be termed natural evil ie the results of natural catastrophes, disease etc. is the result of human action.
I don't see the need to invoke evil spirits to excuse the wrongs that men do.
 
Tiburon said:
Any evil in the world, apart from what might be termed natural evil ie the results of natural catastrophes, disease etc. is the result of human action.
I don't see the need to invoke evil spirits to excuse the wrongs that men do.
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It doesn't excuse the wrong that man does because we have a free will to chose to do evil or not.
I would grant that not every natural disaster is caused by spiritual forces but we wouldn't know the difference unless told. There is no need to invoke evil spirits as causation except that they exist and they like to cause chaos and evil in this world as we read in the book of Job. You presuppose that they don't exist. That's your prerogative.
 
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