The Jewish leaders wanted to quash the movement Jesus started.
So no substantive response to my point.
10 Commandments in Schools
- Thread starter Harry Leggs
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So no substantive response to my point.
Michael R2
Well-known member
So why give up the body in the first place?
Your 'point' was a false statement concerning a position I never proposed.
One, the custom
Two, the authorities thought that the death would be the end of the movement. They were wrong
You said the guards all fell asleep. I told you that why they would not want to do that. Nothing false about my statement. I was filling in the holes of your knowledge.
Crazy Ivan
Well-known member
I'm not sure what your issue is here. There are lots of things in the Bible and church history that scholars piece together. The Bible doesn't say verbatim, "Look, following the resurrection of Jesus, the church leaders got together and decided to worship corporately on Sunday instead of on the traditional Jewish Sabbath on Saturday."
So you look for clues to figure out what they did. And the best reading of it is that they pretty quickly got into the habit of meeting on Sundays and it helps make sense of what people like Justin Martyr wrote - by the time it got to his day circa 150 AD, this was well-established practice in the church. The best reading of it is that it began in New Testament days, as was suggested in Acts 20:7 and 1 Corinthians.
What else are you looking for here?
Michael R2
Well-known member
They needed the body to quash the movement, but they gave up the body because they thought the movement was over. Could you try again with a little more consistency?
Yes.
Yes.
"So you believe that soldiers valued sleep much more than staying alive."
This is the false statement I referenced. I made no such statement, nor did I imply it. I said the guards were asleep. No more.
Are you really that dense? Let a Jewish rabbi from the day explain it to you:
34 Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space;
35 And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men.
36 For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought.
37 After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed.
If they could produce the body, the same thing would happen to the followers of Jesus.
Think about it real hard.
As for as the guards sleeping, as I said, I was trying to fill the holes in your knowledge. I was trying to figure out what you were saying and rephrased it.
Michael R2
Well-known member
The more I ask, the further you wander. The contradiction remains.
The guards were asleep. That's all I said. What's to figure out? If you want to make my arguments for me, I'll leave you to it.
Explain the contradiction. (This should be fun)
AS I said, the guards being asleep does not really explain much. It is an incomplete remark.
Michael R2
Well-known member
1.They needed the body to quash the movement, (why did they need to show the body?)
2. but they gave up the body because they thought the movement was over. (why did they not keep the body?)
Your two answers. Either the movement was over, or it needed to be quashed. Which is it?
It explains that the "authorities" were not in possession of the body. They were asleep.
1. To prove that he was still dead
2 .you just unknowingly answered your own question.
Hindsight is always best.
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tbeachhead
Well-known member
Yep.
Do you read novels? An author uses tools to reveal a character: What the person says. What the person does. What others say about Him.
Jesus is known as much by what He says as He is by what others say about Him. As far as the Bible goes, when "The Word of the Lord came to me and said," I generally read what the Word of the Lord said as if He said it. Jesus is the Word of the Lord, after all...even creation is because of Him.
And the placed the guards there to prevent the body from being taken, so they did have possession of the body. And your lame explanation of the guards took a group nap,.ignores the ramifications to the guards of that happening.
...in your opinion....
With the "we" (in Rome? ) Justin was referring to.
More than suggesred/looks like.
Or euphemisms which may not have been euphemisms in the first century.
Michael R2
Well-known member
You still haven't addressed the contradiction. You claimed they gave up the body because the movement was dead. But they needed the body to quash a movement they thought was dead? If the movement was dead, no proof was needed.
Your Bible claims they slept. That's its "lame explanation".
tbeachhead
Well-known member
I'm not sure what you're arguing or why. Are you saying it doesn't matter if you take a day? The sabbath law is one of the few among the ten that was punished for violation thereof by a death penalty. The fast in Isaiah 58 doesn't talk of a shadow. There is more to this principle than mere shadow, that much I know. And the truth is...when a Christian chooses to neglect the Sabbath law (as the only one of the Ten that no longer matters at all, btw.), because they have been taught that they have already "entered" that fabled rest, and therefore they now have license to turn their foot and break the Sabbath, to continue doing as they please on His holy day. They will not call the Sabbath a delight, and the LORD’s holy day honorable, nor honor it, but instead will go their own way and seek their own pleasure and speak idle words.
That pretty much describes what happens in most Christian homes after the performance art they attend on a Sunday, which consists of a few songs and a pithy commentary that lasts a maximum of twenty minutes. If this doesn't describe your choices...if you're doing everything right, then Isaiah is describing your present experience in detail in the next verse:
14"then you will delight yourself in the LORD, and I will make you ride on the heights of the land and feed you with the heritage of your father Jacob.”
So...what's it like on the heights? And how's the feed?
Yeah...you're kind of torturing the context, though, aren't you?
Crazy Ivan
Well-known member
No, that's how it's done. It's not a matter of my opinion.
Well like a LOT of things in ancient texts, you're not going to get what you're looking for. Scholarship is so often looking for clues to piece things together. This is true in archaeology, paleontology, and history.
Hey if you have any inside knowledge, do share.
I did not say was dead. I said they hoped it would be dead. You are being confrontational just for the heck of it.
Are you always such an angry person.
Show me the verse where it says it was a voluntary nap.
Michael R2
Well-known member
A little bit, yes.
I'm not even close to angry. This has actually been quite amusing.
Show me where I said it was a voluntary nap. The only claim I've made is that they were asleep. Why do you continue to embellish that simple statement?
What would have been the ramifications to the soldiers for sleeping on the job?
Michael R2
Well-known member
It doesn't matter to the point I raised. It's rather difficult to be in control of external factors (or a body) when you're asleep.