Lucian
Well-known member
No worries: we all make mistakes.
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A short essay for the Brit who thinks "torture" is a synonym for "punishment"
- Thread starter stiggy wiggy
- Start date
Lucian
Well-known member
I’m flattered.
Well, I assume you know what it is to translate something. To transliterate is to move from one alphabet to another as closely as you can.
Pneuma means all sorts of things. You can look it up if you’re after details. But if you’re thinking about air, spirit, breath, and that sort of thing, you’re in the right neighbourhood.
That was quite the egregious quote-mine there. Do you really think doing that makes you look good?
stiggy wiggy
Well-known member
Actually, it makes him look clever. Your response makes you look humorless. Or rather, confirms that you are.
John Milton
Well-known member
My original post pointed out your mistake. I fail to see how that's "unconstructive". And I don't see how my response was any worse than your twisting my words into some type of apology. In truth I think you've probably confused me with another poster from the previous forum. I took his moniker to annoy him exactly for the reasons you stated.
Lucian
Well-known member
Of course, nobody has made this claim, and anyway no mistake was made.
But you did apologise. That I didn’t give you the satisfaction of the lazy sarcasm with which your apology was loaded may chagrin you, but I don’t care.
As for whether naked insults are ‘any worse’ than this: of course they are.
Nominative determinism dies hard.
John Milton
Well-known member
Removed.
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SteveB
Well-known member
Ah, well then.... this is the problem.
Your application is incorrect.
YHVH doesn't take any kind of pleasure in your being punished for your sin.
He even states as much!
[Eze 18:4, 31-32 NKJV] 4 "Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die. ... 31 "Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 "For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies," says the Lord GOD. "Therefore turn and live!"
That said, here's the mirriam webster definition of Punishment
Definition of PUNISHMENT
the act of punishing; suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution; a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure… See the full definition
www.merriam-webster.com
Definition of punishment
1: the act of punishing
2a: suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution
b: a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure
3: severe, rough, or disastrous treatment
This is a more accurate definition of what your unrepentant eternity will be should you refuse to follow Jesus by the time you die.
Looks pretty close for punishment too.
Severe, rough, and disastrous treatment will be your end should you refuse to turn to YHVH from your sin, and place your trust in Jesus.
So, my belief is what makes something true or not?
I guess your belief means you will be tormented, even though it's punishment for your sin.
You really should learn the bible more.
G2851 - kolasis - Strong's Greek Lexicon (nkjv)
G2851 - κόλασις kólasis, kol'-as-is; from ; penal infliction:—punishment, torment.
www.blueletterbible.org
Punishment is not torture. Yet you keep insisting on torture being punishment.
Definition of punishment
1: the act of punishing
2a: suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution
b: a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure
3: severe, rough, or disastrous treatment
Already did. Perhaps you should look more closely. Torture is not the word used in the bible. It's punishment.
That you keep agreeing that torture is not punishment, and punishment is not torture, I'm wondering if you're simply losing your capacity to reason clearly.
This is part of the consequence of deliberately and willfully choosing sin. Your reasoning becomes increasingly futile, and you lose clarity of reason.
I thought you'd recognize the lack of tenability of your position, but apparently you've chosen to entrench yourself into stupidity.
It's not complicated. You're choosing an erroneous perspective and believing a lie.
YHVH doesn't torture. No matter how desperately you want to be tortured. He will punish you for your refusal to turn to Him and place your trust in Jesus.
Curious..... now you're deliberately changing the word from Punishment to Torture.
I.e., this is an outright lie you're telling here Pix!
G2851 - kolasis - Strong's Greek Lexicon (nkjv)
G2851 - κόλασις kólasis, kol'-as-is; from ; penal infliction:—punishment, torment.
www.blueletterbible.org
Even Plato, Aristotle, and others know the difference.
κόλασις, κολάσεως, ἡ (κολάζω), correction, punishment, penalty: Matthew 25:46; κόλασιν ἔχει,brings with it or has connected with it the thought of punishment, 1 John 4:18. (Ezekiel 14:3f, etc.; 2 Macc. 4:38; 4 Macc. 8:8; Wis. 11:14 Wis. 16:24, etc.; Plato, Aristotle, Diodorus 1, 77 (9); 4, 44 (3); Aelian v. h. 7, 15; others.)
Your continued changing punishment into torture. I'm doing this to show you what you're doing.
Nope--- that you are wrong.
Ok, you suggest. I'll simply come out and state it--- you've changed punishment into torture, and claim torture, when the bible clearly uses the word- kolasis, for punishment. So, if you really want to continue your delusion, it'll cost you more.
Nope. That's what you want it to be because you're desperate to justify your stupidity.
κόλασις, κολάσεως, ἡ (κολάζω), correction, punishment, penalty: Matthew 25:46; κόλασιν ἔχει,brings with it or has connected with it the thought of punishment, 1 John 4:18. (Ezekiel 14:3f, etc.; 2 Macc. 4:38; 4 Macc. 8:8; Wis. 11:14 Wis. 16:24, etc.; Plato, Aristotle, Diodorus 1, 77 (9); 4, 44 (3); Aelian v. h. 7, 15; others.)
Even these guys know the difference. Are you really going to call them liars?
Change your mind. Stop believing the lies, and start believing the truth.
YOU BELIEVE......
So, is this your way of saying what you believe defines the truth and reality?
That would indeed explain why you believe that you'll be tortured, even though the word Punished, is used. So, apparently, you be d-man, and all awareness dwells with you, as you be d-definer of all reality.
Firstly, he's not torturing anyone. In spite of your desperation to be tortured, so you can justify your ongoing ignorance and clearly defined hatred.
treeplanter
Well-known member
The lesson, according to God, that we need to learn is this:
To remove ultimate trust from self to Him
The question, stiggy, is this:
Is God capable of imparting this lesson to us in a manner and fashion that is every bit as convincing to us WITHOUT extraneous punishment/harm as it is WITH the attendant punishment/harm?
A simple yes or no response will suffice
Thanks in advance!
treeplanter
Well-known member
You, too, Steve...
I'd appreciate an answer
The lesson, according to God, that we need to learn is this:
To remove ultimate trust from self to Him
The question is this:
Is God capable of imparting this lesson to us in a manner and fashion that is every bit as convincing to us WITHOUT extraneous punishment/harm as it is WITH the attendant punishment/harm?
A simple yes or no response will suffice
Thanks in advance!
stiggy wiggy
Well-known member
Actually, the question is this: Is God capable of teaching us experiential lessons without an experience? The answer is no. Just like He is incapable of producing dogs who are not dogs. He LIKES us to subjectively undergo our lessons, as opposed to grilling objective stuff into our brain. Example:
The lesson we learn about the evil of adultery is more powerful if we undergo the pain and agony of experiential guilt associated with having committed it, than if we give strong mental consent to the truth of the Seventh Commandment.
treeplanter
Well-known member
No, stiggy, you don't get to rephrase my question!
You don't get to move the goalposts!!
Obviously, no one, not even God {because He honors logic} is capable of communicating EXPERIENTIAL lessons upon us without ensuring that we actually EXPERIENCE
This, however, is NOT what I am asking!
Again, is God capable of imparting this lesson to us in a manner and fashion that is every bit as convincing to us WITHOUT extraneous punishment/harm as it is WITH the attendant punishment/harm?
YES
or
NO?
stiggy wiggy
Well-known member
Obviously that is untrue. I just did.
Correct. There are no goal posts to either move or ignore.
Correct. You just rephrased my previous comment. See? You DO "get to" do that.
Depends on the lesson. I gave you an example of one in which the answer is no. Here's one in which the answer is yes:
"Can God impart the knowledge that 1+1=2 or that Dover is the capital of Delaware without attendant harm?"
treeplanter
Well-known member
Is God capable of imparting to us, in a manner and fashion that is every bit as convincing to us WITHOUT extraneous punishment/harm as it is WITH the attendant punishment/harm, that we are to remove ultimate trust from self to Him?
YES
or
NO???
stiggy wiggy
Well-known member
Stop ignoring my answers and repeating your question. Look what you just did. You used the participial verb "imparting" without giving it a direct object. Imparting WHAT? As I answered earlier and which you ignored, give me an example. I gave you an example in which the answer is no, and two in which it is yes. Your turn.
stiggy wiggy
Well-known member
OK, I reread your question. I see that you DID give a direct object, or rather a phrase, to your participial verb, but you constructed your sentence so clumsily that I missed it on first reading.
"......... to remove ultimate trust from self to Him."
NO. We are built in such a way that merely giving mental assent to the proposition that "Jesus is worthy of ultimate trust" won't suffice for the surrender of will that He knows we need. We must EXPERIENCE the harm of having not done so, in order to facilitate that surrender and receive that consequent trust.
"......... to remove ultimate trust from self to Him."
NO. We are built in such a way that merely giving mental assent to the proposition that "Jesus is worthy of ultimate trust" won't suffice for the surrender of will that He knows we need. We must EXPERIENCE the harm of having not done so, in order to facilitate that surrender and receive that consequent trust.
treeplanter
Well-known member
Then God is not omnipotent and, despite scripture's claim, not all things are possible with God after all
In this case, why bother placing your trust in Him to begin with?
And who, for that matter, "built us" in the first place?
stiggy wiggy
Well-known member
Because He is worthy of that trust. I KNOW that from experience, just as I know from experience the suffering attendant on NOT trusting Him.
He did. Yeah, I know: If you were God, you'd have created us so that you could just holler out from on high, "TRUST ME!" and we all would.
treeplanter
Well-known member
"Because" is NOT an answer, stiggy!
I didn't accept "just because" when I was a kid and I sure as hell don't accept it now as an adult!!
Scripture/Christianity insists that God is Almighty/omnipotent and that, with Him, all things are possible
1. How, then, is it possible that He is incapable of imparting understanding upon us without first making us suffer?
2. Why would you place your trust in a being who claims a capability that you, yourself, acknowledge that He is incapable of performing?