About that 150 billion in hidden accounts...

[dberrie2020]

Markk said:The ones that the church was charged with and refused to answer specifics in the 60 minutes interview of Bishop Waddle...did you watch the program?

The quotes I gave you show they were illegal accounts, signed by phony managers. The 60 minutes interview speaks of the 150 billion dollar question, which Bishop Waddle ducked...

Do you remember at what minute point in the interview that Waddle ducked the $150 billion question?

OK--let's separate out the facts from the fiction, please.

Markk mixes the question of the 150 billion with "illegal accounts"--let's get this clear--there is nothing on 60 minutes, nor any other credible source--which links 150 billion with "illegal accounts".

That's a fabricated story. The 150 billion is associated with the totality of the investment fund, or possibility of the entire church---not the funds in illegal accounts.

 

[Markk]

150 Billion? back in 2019 it was about half that And out of that it was even less that was put into special accounts...

LOL, so you are saying that they only cheated on about 75 billion...LOL and not special accounts, they were illegal shell companies.

 

[Markk]

Markk said:The ones that the church was charged with and refused to answer specifics in the 60 minutes interview of Bishop Waddle...did you watch the program?

The quotes I gave you show they were illegal accounts, signed by phony managers. The 60 minutes interview speaks of the 150 billion dollar question, which Bishop Waddle ducked...




OK--let's separate out the facts from the fiction, please.

Markk mixes the question of the 150 billion with "illegal accounts"--let's get this clear--there is nothing on 60 minutes, nor any other credible source--which links 150 billion with "illegal accounts".

That's a fabricated story. The 150 billion is associated with the totality of the investment fund, or possibility of the entire church---not the funds in illegal accounts.

LOL, okay how much money was in the illegal accounts that the cojcolds lied about to the SC and investors? And remember we are just talking about EPA...who know what else in out there. You as a member certainly don't.

The 150 million amount that Mag's asserted is from the 60 minute reported and the SLCT, and other papers across the country, what is the the number you believe? We know for a fact it is over 100 million dollars for each LCC/shell company, that is the min. before a 13 f has to be filed. Are you good with the LDS first presidency okaying cheating for just 2 or 3 billion dollars...what is your over and under for cheating the SEC and investors?

I will assume you are okay with the church cheating, as long as it does not meet or exceed 150 billion dollars.

What a mess!

 

[Magdalena]

No one, that I am aware of--has accused The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints of hiding 150 Billion in "illegal accounts." The 60 minutes program certainly didn't.

That Magdalena's tale, and perhaps yours--and it simply isn't true. It's just another fabricated, fanciful, and exaggerated story.

Mark just showed you. And once again you just blatantly refuse to look at it, and keep repeating your same question over and over. Your accusations about me are what is false.

 

[Markk]

Mark just showed you. And once again you just blatantly refuse to look at it, and keep repeating your same question over and over. Your accusations about me are what is false.

This is what they do, and it is just not DB, he is a amateur. The LDS church and their paid apologists are masters at finding a diversion to the facts. They can't deal with the facts, in this case that the church lied for around 20 years, in filling out and filing the 13 f forums.

Each shell company or LCC had to fill out the form and file the forum EVERY quarter. So as the church created each new shell company, they had to recruit a phony manager to fill out and falsify the location of the shell company, and have them sign falsely the form that they were making the investment decision's, when in fact Ensign Peak Advisors (EPA) were managing the investments under direct supervision of the precising bishopric and the 1st presidency.

Roger Clarke ran (CEO) Ensign Peak for the majority years they were lying on the forms. He worked under the Presiding Bishop/s and the 1st presidency, which incudes Henry B. Eyring (nephew of Spencer W. Kimball) ...who has an extensive back ground in finance. A Harvard Graduate in business. Eyring also was a associate professor at the Stanford school of Business graduate program. Point being he understands finance, he is not a primary teacher, he is a power player in world finance, no doubt, even today.

Roger Clarke...along with being the CEO of EPA, had his own investment company, here is his bio...

Roger G. Clarke
Wells Fargo Asset Management (WFAM) Analytic Investors

Roger G. Clarke currently serves as a research collaborator with Wells Fargo Asset Management (WFAM) Analytic Investors. Roger served as a professor for more than ten years on the faculty of the Marriott School of Management at Brigham Young University. From 1995-2020 he served as president of Ensign Peak Advisors, Inc., an investment management affiliate of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He also served as president and chief investment officer of TSA Capital Management in Los Angeles, CA for ten years and as chairman of the board of Analytic Investors for twenty years. He has served as a member of the editorial boards of the Journal of Portfolio Management and the Financial Analysts Journal.

Roger received a PhD in finance and an MS degree in economics from Stanford University, as well as an MBA and BA degree in physics from Brigham Young University. Roger has published a variety of articles and articles about tactical asset allocation and currency management. In concert with coauthors Steven Thorley and Harin de Silva they have published material over the years about the use of derivatives in investment management, low volatility portfolios, constraints and the fundamental law of active management, long/short portfolio construction, pure factor portfolios and efficient factor investing.

As the chairman of the board of Analytic Investors of 20 years...he managed to make sure all the 13f forms were filled out honestly and correct every time.

I can go on and on, but my point here is with all the very clear evidences, DB's argument is that Magdalena, who was speaking in generalities that the news was reporting, some how negates the point that the church lied, I guess...?

While Ralf is stating these men like Eyring and Clarke were too stupid or inept to properly understand and fill out a 13f forum with is basically like filling out a application for a drivers license.

But this what the church/mopolgists do...divert from the truth with these weak rabbit trail diversions

Folks, if you want to know the truth, I would start Click Here

 

[Magdalena]

This is what they do, and it is just not DB, he is a amateur. The LDS church and their paid apologists are masters at finding a diversion to the facts. They can't deal with the facts, in this case that the church lied for around 20 years, in filling out and filing the 13 f forums.

Each shell company or LCC had to fill out the form and file the forum EVERY quarter. So as the church created each new shell company, they had to recruit a phony manager to fill out and falsify the location of the shell company, and have them sign falsely the form that they were making the investment decision's, when in fact Ensign Peak Advisors (EPA) were managing the investments under direct supervision of the precising bishopric and the 1st presidency.

Roger Clarke ran (CEO) Ensign Peak for the majority years they were lying on the forms. He worked under the Presiding Bishop/s and the 1st presidency, which incudes Henry B. Eyring (nephew of Spencer W. Kimball) ...who has an extensive back ground in finance. A Harvard Graduate in business. Eyring also was a associate professor at the Stanford school of Business graduate program. Point being he understands finance, he is not a primary teacher, he is a power player in world finance, no doubt, even today.

Roger Clarke...along with being the CEO of EPA, had his own investment company, here is his bio...



As the chairman of the board of Analytic Investors of 20 years...he managed to make sure all the 13f forms were filled out honestly and correct every time.

I can go on and on, but my point here is with all the very clear evidences, DB's argument is that Magdalena, who was speaking in generalities that the news was reporting, some how negates the point that the church lied, I guess...?

While Ralf is stating these men like Eyring and Clarke were too stupid or inept to properly understand and fill out a 13f forum with is basically like filling out a application for a drivers license.

But this what the church/mopolgists do...divert from the truth with these weak rabbit trail diversions

Folks, if you want to know the truth, I would start Click Here

Yes, and I was speaking in generalities at that moment because we’ve been through all of this ad nauseam here before, with these same posters. You’ve spent so much time presenting all the facts here. And for them to claim they didn’t know about it is ludicrous and dishonest.

 

[Markk]

Yes, and I was speaking in generalities at that moment because we’ve been through all of this ad nauseam here before, with these same posters. You’ve spent so much time presenting all the facts here. And for them to claim they didn’t know about it is ludicrous and dishonest.

This exercise really shows how the church has a grip on much of the membership, I really recommend that folks go the widows mite website and read through it, it is a easy read. It is 100% by volunteers, many faithful saints.

What is important is that this also shows how TBMs like DB and Ralf process logic in regard to their preconceived mindset that the church is blameless here. DB is just diverting by finding one thing, the generality of 60 minutes, and hiding behind that ignoring all the evidence that the church lied.

While Ralf's excuse is just really beyond reason, that one of the largest investment portfolios in the US, larger than Apple and Microsoft together, is too inept to fill out a form with directions that is done correctly every quarter by much much smaller portfolios. They have teams or lawyers and accountants, not to mention Elder Eyring, Oaks, Roger Clarke...etc., and they again are too inept to fill out a 3 or 4 page form anyone can download online.

But this is how they process logic, it is what is necessary to keep the testimony from cracking.

 

[dberrie2020]

LOL, so you are saying that they only cheated on about 75 billion...

Cite, please. I have never made any such claim.

 

[dberrie2020]

Mark just showed you. And once again you just blatantly refuse to look at it, and keep repeating your same question over and over. Your accusations about me are what is false.

Cite, please. He did no such thing.

And I have viewed the 60 minutes program--and there is nothing there about 150 Billion in "illegal accounts". That is a false claim.

So--what accusations about you, which I have made--are you claiming is false? Cite, please.

 

[Magdalena]

Cite, please. He did no such thing.

And I have viewed the 60 minutes program--and there is nothing there about 150 Billion in "illegal accounts". That is a false claim.

So--what accusations about you, which I have made--are you claiming is false? Cite, please.

No. No more “cite please” over and over, when we just showed you.

 

[Markk]

Cite, please. I have never made any such claim.

I never said you did as far as I can remember, I did say it to Ralf as I recall.

Folks, this is exactly what I mean by some members having to process information in a skewed lens, as to protect their testimony. Ralf and you can't even come clean that the church lied on the forms.

Correct me, up until they started filling out the 13f forms correctly, how much money was in these shell companies, LCC's, or in ralfs world, "Special accounts," or any other term you might choose... ball park figures are okay, did the church put into the markets through the companies?

Will you concede that the 13f forms of the companies were consistently filly out incorrectly?

Folks this thread will be interesting and serve as an example of how some church members avoid accepting the church was dishonest in these dealings.

 

[Richard7]

LOL...they were fined for illegally hiding Billions...maybe it was more than 150 billion, maybe only 30, 50, or a 100...never the less...they were charged, and settled out of court.

If the LDS church is so honest, why didn't bishop Waddle clear it up? We know it was billions for sure, so if you are going to make the claim that it was not a 150 billion, how much was it...if you can't you are just a "wrong" as Mag's or I, but are still left with the fact they were guilty of lying for 20 some odd years with full knowledge of the 1st presidency...which is what this is about.

So, how much was the church guilty of hiding in illegal accounts for those 20 some years? Maybe it was 200 billion?

Press Release​

SEC Announces Enforcement Results for Fiscal Year 2023

Commission filed 784 enforcement actions, obtained orders for nearly $5 billion in financial remedies, and distributed nearly $1 billion to harmed investors​

Who Markk were the harmed investors, did anyone seek any of the 6 billion in damages???

 

[Richard7]

Cite, please. I have never made any such claim.

It wasn't me either, oh my! their desperation to want to blame someone...

 

[Richard7]

I never said you did as far as I can remember, I did say it to Ralf as I recall.

Folks, this is exactly what I mean by some members having to process information in a skewed lens, as to protect their testimony. Ralf and you can't even come clean that the church lied on the forms.

Different perspectives as to the regulations my friend.... government is known to apply complicated regulations and laws, so is everyone who finds a loophole guilty of understanding government non clarity... chuckle. I've dealt with it in the building industry.
There regulations, directives, acts, edicts and inspections are archaic, dumb and time wasting gobble gook...

Correct me, up until they started filling out the 13f forms correctly, how much money was in these shell companies, LCC's, or in ralfs world, "Special accounts," or any other term you might choose... ball park figures are okay, did the church put into the markets through the companies?

It wasn't 150 billion Markk. I believe it was about 36 billion dollars....

Will you concede that the 13f forms of the companies were consistently filly out incorrectly?

According to the SEC they were... according to the Church, not so much...pertaining to their investment lawyers or attorneys.

Folks this thread will be interesting and serve as an example of how some church members avoid accepting the church was dishonest in these dealings.

150 billion dollars and does not take long for the vultures to get wind of it... chuckle....

 

[Magdalena]

Different perspectives as to the regulations my friend.... government is known to apply complicated regulations and laws, so is everyone who finds a loophole guilty of understanding government non clarity... chuckle. I've dealt with it in the building industry.
There regulations, directives, acts, edicts and inspections are archaic, dumb and time wasting gobble gook...




It wasn't 150 billion Markk. I believe it was about 36 billion dollars....



According to the SEC they were... according to the Church, not so much...pertaining to their investment lawyers or attorneys.





150 billion dollars and does not take long for the vultures to get wind of it... chuckle....

Vultures? None of us want that money.

 

[Markk]

No. No more “cite please” over and over, when we just showed you.

Different perspectives as to the regulations my friend.... government is known to apply complicated regulations and laws, so is everyone who finds a loophole guilty of understanding government non clarity... chuckle. I've dealt with it in the building industry.
There regulations, directives, acts, edicts and inspections are archaic, dumb and time wasting gobble gook...

LOL...what is so complicated about the 13 f form? Ralf, the act was instituted in order to try to avoid another major crash in the market.

So instead of blaming the church for cheating, you blame the government?

What are the loop holes in question> What is the "non clarity?"

So as a builder, you just cheat! Is that what your church teaches you?

 

[dberrie2020]

No. No more “cite please” over and over, when we just showed you.

You did no such thing. Nor has Markk.

I have asked for references about your claim of the "150 billion in hidden accounts"--crickets.

I have asked Markk, where in the 60 minutes program did they ever mention 150 billion in a hidden account--crickets.

It's a fabricated story. A false witness.

So--cite, please--for your claim.

 

[dberrie2020]

Mark just showed you. And once again you just blatantly refuse to look at it, and keep repeating your same question over and over.

Markk has done no such thing. Please do give us the cite, if you disagree.

Your accusations about me are what is false.

Then prove it. You claimed The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have 150 billion in "hidden accounts". Please give us the proof of that. What source? Where?

You made a false claim, which you have refused to give your sources. And the sources mentioned here--such as 60 minutes--had no such specific reference. You made a false claim. A false witness.

 

[Markk]

Markk has done no such thing. Please do give us the cite, if you disagree.



Then prove it. You claimed The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have 150 billion in "hidden accounts". Please give us the proof of that. What source? Where?

You made a false claim, which you have refused to give your sources. And the sources mentioned here--such as 60 minutes--had no such specific reference. You made a false claim. A false witness.

Folks this is exactly why members are leaving at record rates.

The LDS church created multiple shell companies. They had church employees falsify the 13f forms. The got busted and settled to avoid a trial...and this member is hiding behind a generality.

In other wards in order to protect his testimony we are some how the villains, and the church that is using him is somehow innocent.

What a mess.

 

[dberrie2020]

Folks this is exactly why members are leaving at record rates.

The last time I checked--The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is still one of the fastest growing churches in America. They are one of the few Christian churches which still post positive numbers in membership growth. The pews aren't emptying out just yet, Markk.

Meanwhile, for example:

Southern Baptists see 12th year of declining membership---https://religionnews.com/2019/05/24/southern-baptists-see-12th-year-of-declining-membership/​

NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) —" The nation’s largest Protestant denomination reported its twelfth year of declining membership in an annual report released Thursday.

The Southern Baptist Convention said it had 14.8 million members in 2018, down about 192,000 from the previous year. Baptisms also declined by about 7,600 to 246,442. That’s an important measure for a denomination with a strong commitment to evangelism.

The SBC’s membership peaked at 16.3 million in 2006. Its giving has continued to grow, however, with its churches collecting $11.8 billion last year."

Personally--I never thought I would see anything like that--and I hate to see it, even if it's not my own denomination. I believe it's because of the growing irreligious attitudes found in America.

We are in a small town in middle Georgia--with a small church, but our membership has almost busted out of our local church building--with an average attendance of over 200 weekly. We have opened up the overflow area--and are looking for more room.