About that 150 billion in hidden accounts...

[Richard7]

LOL...what is so complicated about the 13 f form? Ralf, the act was instituted in order to try to avoid another major crash in the market.

So instead of blaming the church for cheating, you blame the government?

What are the loop holes in question> What is the "non clarity?"

So as a builder, you just cheat! Is that what your church teaches you?

Well I'm not a lawyer and if you remember, the heat really is on them... chuckle...
I would say that I try to abide by all the regulations in the building code, but that's why we have inspectors, they find errors and we correct them, did I do the error on purpose? chuckle

 

[dberrie2020]

No one knows how much money was stashed away in the illegal accounts.

Magdalena claims to know:

Magdalena said---"You don’t benefit one penny from the $150 billion hidden away in illegal accounts."

Markk--were are still looking for that 150 Billion in "illegal accounts". What shall we say if her accusation can't be substantiated with facts?

 

[dberrie2020]

The ones that the church was charged with and refused to answer specifics in the 60 minutes interview of Bishop Waddle...did you watch the program?

I did--and there isn't the first mention of "150 billion hidden away in illegal accounts".

Did Magdalena bear a false witness--or do you have proof she was correct? One certainly can't look to the 60 minutes program to verify Magdalena's specific statement.

 

[Richard7]

I did--and there isn't the first mention of "150 billion hidden away in illegal accounts".

Did Magdalena bear a false witness--or do you have proof she was correct? One certainly can't look to the 60 minutes program to verify Magdalena's specific statement.

Chuckle, it's sad to see them intentionally qualify a made up amount of money invested in different accounts that the SEC found as rock solid good investments

 

[Markk]

The last time I checked--The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is still one of the fastest growing churches in America. They are one of the few Christian churches which still post positive numbers in membership growth. The pews aren't emptying out just yet, Markk.

Meanwhile, for example:

Southern Baptists see 12th year of declining membership---https://religionnews.com/2019/05/24/southern-baptists-see-12th-year-of-declining-membership/​

NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) —" The nation’s largest Protestant denomination reported its twelfth year of declining membership in an annual report released Thursday.

The Southern Baptist Convention said it had 14.8 million members in 2018, down about 192,000 from the previous year. Baptisms also declined by about 7,600 to 246,442. That’s an important measure for a denomination with a strong commitment to evangelism.

The SBC’s membership peaked at 16.3 million in 2006. Its giving has continued to grow, however, with its churches collecting $11.8 billion last year."

Personally--I never thought I would see anything like that--and I hate to see it, even if it's not my own denomination. I believe it's because of the growing irreligious attitudes found in America.

We are in a small town in middle Georgia--with a small church, but our membership has almost busted out of our local church building--with an average attendance of over 200 weekly. We have opened up the overflow area--and are looking for more room.

CFR, as far as know the only place the LDS church is growing is in Africa.

How many active members are there...CFR please. This deserves a thread...

I agree that most Christian denominations are falling, and I admit it. Can you admit that the LDS church is in decline?

Did your stake have to close and combined stakes? It is what they are doing all over now, which is why some wards have more people than before.

 

[Markk]

Chuckle, it's sad to see them intentionally qualify a made up amount of money invested in different accounts that the SEC found as rock solid good investments

Huh...the SEC found them as rock solid investments? Please, tell me how they did this?

I did--and there isn't the first mention of "150 billion hidden away in illegal accounts".

Did Magdalena bear a false witness--or do you have proof she was correct? One certainly can't look to the 60 minutes program to verify Magdalena's specific statement.

No that is your strawman...how much money was in the shell accounts during those years? do you know?

How is being wrong on something being a false witness? Ralf does it in most of his posts, we all do it here from time to time.

She admitted she was generalizing based on the 60 minutes and news paper reports. But the fact remains there was Billions of dollars in tithe payer money in shell accounts with phony managers. Can you admit that?

Start at 7:00 minutes...

 

[dberrie2020]

No that is your strawman...how much money was in the shell accounts during those years? do you know?

I do not know--and neither does Magdalena--which makes her claim of 150 billion "hidden away in illegal accounts"--as mere speculation, at best--and a false witness.

How is being wrong on something being a false witness?

Because bearing a false witness is something which is wrong. Magdalena is wrong to make a claim which she cannot support with facts--it becomes a false witness a that juncture.

Ralf does it in most of his posts, we all do it here from time to time.

Even if that were true--how does that mitigate the fact Magdalena bore a false witness?

She admitted she was generalizing based on the 60 minutes and news paper reports.

IOW--she made a statement which she just can't back with facts.

Markk--"150 billion" isn't a general amount--it's a specific amount.

 

[dberrie2020]

dberrie said----The last time I checked--The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is still one of the fastest growing churches in America. They are one of the few Christian churches which still post positive numbers in membership growth. The pews aren't emptying out just yet, Markk.

Meanwhile, for example:

Southern Baptists see 12th year of declining membership---https://religionnews.com/2019/05/24/southern-baptists-see-12th-year-of-declining-membership/​

NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) —" The nation’s largest Protestant denomination reported its twelfth year of declining membership in an annual report released Thursday.

The Southern Baptist Convention said it had 14.8 million members in 2018, down about 192,000 from the previous year. Baptisms also declined by about 7,600 to 246,442. That’s an important measure for a denomination with a strong commitment to evangelism.

The SBC’s membership peaked at 16.3 million in 2006. Its giving has continued to grow, however, with its churches collecting $11.8 billion last year."

Personally--I never thought I would see anything like that--and I hate to see it, even if it's not my own denomination. I believe it's because of the growing irreligious attitudes found in America.

We are in a small town in middle Georgia--with a small church, but our membership has almost busted out of our local church building--with an average attendance of over 200 weekly. We have opened up the overflow area--and are looking for more room.

CFR, as far as know the only place the LDS church is growing is in Africa.

CFR on anything about "the only place the LDS church is growing is in Africa."
in my above post. I haven't personally made any such claim.

I agree that most Christian denominations are falling, and I admit it.

Then your claim, or any of the critic's claim here about membership decline in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--is a little dubious, IMO.

Can you admit that the LDS church is in decline?

I don't know of any year The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints posted a decline in total membership. As I stated before--they are one of the few Christian churches which can make that claim.

 

[dberrie2020]

Chuckle, it's sad to see them intentionally qualify a made up amount of money invested in different accounts that the SEC found as rock solid good investments

I agree-clouds without water:

Jude 12---King James Version
12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Personally--it isn't difficult to understand the envy which is expressed in the kind of prosperity The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has experienced. And mightily the church grows.

 

[Markk]

I do not know--and neither does Magdalena--which makes her claim of 150 billion "hidden away in illegal accounts"--as mere speculation, at best--and a false witness.

Nonsense, if you don't know, then it just might be 150 billon or even more. The 150 is speculation, and Waddle could have confirmed it...and in a way he did confirm it was a large amount when asked by the reporter if it was 150 billion...but the only false witness here, if any, is your refusal to address the real issue of the church's dishonesty.

Because bearing a false witness is something which is wrong. Magdalena is wrong to make a claim which she cannot support with facts--it becomes a false witness a that juncture.

how is she wrong? You just admitted you don't know how much? Waddle when asked if it was a 150 billion he just smirked and said that was a estimate that some made, and that church has significant resources.

Even if that were true--how does that mitigate the fact Magdalena bore a false witness?

It doesn't, I am showing you that your standard for a false witness is just lame...you can't even answer simple questions so by your standard you are being a false witness even by omission only, like here, like when you accuse Magdalena of saying something false, when you admit you do not know the answer to what she claimed?

IOW--she made a statement which she just can't back with facts.

Markk--"150 billion" isn't a general amount--it's a specific amount.

Back up she was wrong? How much money did the church have invested in the illegal shell companies?

This is just a way of your not dealing with the church lying on the forms...it is that obvious. We all know it is in the Billions of tithe payer monies.

 

[dberrie2020]

Chuckle, it's sad to see them intentionally qualify a made up amount of money invested in different accounts that the SEC found as rock solid good investments

I agree-clouds without water:

Jude 12---King James Version
12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Personally--it isn't difficult to understand the envy which is expressed in the kind of prosperity The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has experienced. And mightily the church grows.

 

[dberrie2020]

......The 150 is speculation,......

And that was the point of this post--to show it was just mere speculation. A false witness.

how is she wrong?

By claiming The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has 150 billion "hidden away in illegal accounts".

That is the point in this OP(and that's usually original post, or original poster)--to show Magdalena made a statement which cannot be backed with facts. And 60 minutes isn't going to help her cause--or yours, as to 150 billion "hidden away in illegal accounts". There was no such claim there.

You just admitted you don't know how much? Waddle when asked if it was a 150 billion he just smirked and said that was a estimate that some made, and that church has significant resources.

Let's clarify that claim--it was as to the speculation value of total investments--not the total money "hidden away in illegal accounts".

It doesn't, I am showing you that your standard for a false witness is just lame...you can't even answer simple questions so by your standard you are being a false witness even by omission only, like here, like when you accuse Magdalena of saying something false, when you admit you do not know the answer to what she claimed?

I haven't made any claims of specific amounts--because I don't know any specific amounts--when it comes to total amounts.

Magdalena made a claim about a specific amount in hidden, illegal accounts. That's a false witness--unless she can back it with facts.

Crickets.

Back up she was wrong?

Back up she was right. Where is that evidence?

How much money did the church have invested in the illegal shell companies?

This is just a way of your not dealing with the church lying on the forms...it is that obvious. We all know it is in the Billions of tithe payer monies.

Whatever amount you feel it is--Magdalena's claim of 150 billion in hidden, illegal accounts--can't be backed with the facts found in the 60 minutes program, or any other data, that we know of.

 

[Markk]

dberrie said----The last time I checked--The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is still one of the fastest growing churches in America. They are one of the few Christian churches which still post positive numbers in membership growth. The pews aren't emptying out just yet, Markk.

Meanwhile, for example:

Southern Baptists see 12th year of declining membership---https://religionnews.com/2019/05/24/southern-baptists-see-12th-year-of-declining-membership/​

NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) —" The nation’s largest Protestant denomination reported its twelfth year of declining membership in an annual report released Thursday.

The Southern Baptist Convention said it had 14.8 million members in 2018, down about 192,000 from the previous year. Baptisms also declined by about 7,600 to 246,442. That’s an important measure for a denomination with a strong commitment to evangelism.

The SBC’s membership peaked at 16.3 million in 2006. Its giving has continued to grow, however, with its churches collecting $11.8 billion last year."

Personally--I never thought I would see anything like that--and I hate to see it, even if it's not my own denomination. I believe it's because of the growing irreligious attitudes found in America.

We are in a small town in middle Georgia--with a small church, but our membership has almost busted out of our local church building--with an average attendance of over 200 weekly. We have opened up the overflow area--and are looking for more room.



CFR on anything about "the only place the LDS church is growing is in Africa."
in my above post. I haven't personally made any such claim.



Then your claim, or any of the critic's claim here about membership decline in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--is a little dubious, IMO.



I don't know of any year The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints posted a decline in total membership. As I stated before--they are one of the few Christian churches which can make that claim.

Claims by the church can only be taken with a grain of salt, and your words are crafted.

The real lie in this is that the church counts people that were baptized and recorded, and then never stepped foot in the church again, I may even still be counted as a member for all I know. I know of countless people I went to church with during my years as a member and as a ex-member that have had nothing to do with the church for decades...yet the church counts them as members...so their claim is just skewed beyond reality.

I assume you have been a member for many years, how many members have you witnessed just fall away, or join but never really get involved and just fade away. How many folks in each ward are just names on a piece of paper that never attend? Yet these folks are counted as members.

Heck RFM is still considered a member, and I think Kerry Shirts is also still on the rolls, and they have widely viewed anti Mormon podcasts...viewed by countless of members who no longer consider themselves members that are still on the rolls.

How many people in parts of Europe and Russia were the church has collapsed are counted as members?

In other words, "posting" a positive growth is just that, a "posting" it has nothing to do with a honest evaluation.

 

[Bonnie]

Claims by the church can only be taken with a grain of salt, and your words are crafted.

The real lie in this is that the church counts people that were baptized and recorded, and then never stepped foot in the church again, I may even still be counted as a member for all I know. I know of countless people I went to church with during my years as a member and as a ex-member that have had nothing to do with the church for decades...yet the church counts them as members...so their claim is just skewed beyond reality.

I assume you have been a member for many years, how many members have you witnessed just fall away, or join but never really get involved and just fade away. How many folks in each ward are just names on a piece of paper that never attend? Yet these folks are counted as members.

Heck RFM is still considered a member, and I think Kerry Shirts is also still on the rolls, and they have widely viewed anti Mormon podcasts...viewed by countless of members who no longer consider themselves members that are still on the rolls.

How many people in parts of Europe and Russia were the church has collapsed are counted as members?

In other words, "posting" a positive growth is just that, a "posting" it has nothing to do with a honest evaluation.

I seem to remember something on this board some years ago, about "baseball" conversions....do you remember that and what it was about? Didn't the LDS church use some form of bribery in poorer countries to get people to join their church, like giving out food--and after the people got the food, they joined, and then never set foot in an LDS meeting ever again? I may not be remembering correctly, though, as it was probably....oh, 9-10 years ago on here.

 

[Markk]

And that was the point of this post--to show it was just mere speculation. A false witness.



By claiming The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has 150 billion "hidden away in illegal accounts".

That is the point in this OP(and that's usually original post, or original poster)--to show Magdalena made a statement which cannot be backed with facts. And 60 minutes isn't going to help her cause--or yours, as to 150 billion "hidden away in illegal accounts". There was no such claim there.



Let's clarify that claim--it was as to the speculation value of total investments--not the total money "hidden away in illegal accounts".



I haven't made any claims of specific amounts--because I don't know any specific amounts--when it comes to total amounts.

Magdalena made a claim about a specific amount in hidden, illegal accounts. That's a false witness--unless she can back it with facts.

Crickets.



Back up she was right. Where is that evidence?



Whatever amount you feel it is--Magdalena's claim of 150 billion in hidden, illegal accounts--can't be backed with the facts found in the 60 minutes program, or any other data, that we know of.

I am asking you how much it is...you said you don't know yet you claim Magdalena is wrong...is that a false witness when you accuse others of something you don't know the answer to?

Speculating is not bearing a false witness, and especially if the church is not open and honest with the numbers.

 

[Markk]

I seem to remember something on this board some years ago, about "baseball" conversions....do you remember that and what it was about? Didn't the LDS church use some form of bribery in poorer countries to get people to join their church, like giving out food--and after the people got the food, they joined, and then never set foot in an LDS meeting ever again? I may not be remembering correctly, though, as it was probably....oh, 9-10 years ago on here.

Yes, and huge inflated numbers in South America. John Dehlin (Mormon stories) was a missionary in I believe Chile, and he witnesses the Missions inflating the rates, and baptizing folks with no retention...he even went to President Oaks and complained. He has episode on it.

The baseball baptisms were when Missionaries were baptizing young men using sport as "bait" ..they would make baptism a must to join a league. They got busted and had to excommunicate many of the kids, but who knows what the impact was and is.

 

[dberrie2020]

I am asking you how much it is...you said you don't know yet you claim Magdalena is wrong...

The fact of Magdalena bearing a false witness has nothing to do with what I believe the amount is.

The source of Magdalena's false witness is her failure to give any evidence of her claim The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has 150 billion "hidden away in illegal accounts".

And the 60 minutes program you threw in-- won't help her cause, as to that amount.

is that a false witness when you accuse others of something you don't know the answer to?

Again--the accusations of bearing a false witness has nothing to do with what I have the answer to. It becomes a false witness because there is no specific evidence to support it.

Speculating is not bearing a false witness, ....

Magdalena didn't qualify it as speculation--it was an open accusation:

Magdalena said---"You don’t benefit one penny from the $150 billion hidden away in illegal accounts."

Where are the facts which back that claim?

 

[dberrie2020]

I seem to remember something on this board some years ago, about "baseball" conversions....do you remember that and what it was about? Didn't the LDS church use some form of bribery in poorer countries to get people to join their church,....

Let's separate truth from fiction here.

There might have been some members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints which started some policies regarding baseball and church attendance, in some areas--but there isn't any specific evidence which shows it was a policy of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In fact--when the leader of that area found out about it--he stopped any forward movement of that individual policy.

There will always be some within any organization which start policies without the approval of the organization, as a whole.

 

[Bonnie]

Huh...the SEC found them as rock solid investments? Please, tell me how they did this?

No that is your strawman...how much money was in the shell accounts during those years? do you know?

How is being wrong on something being a false witness? Ralf does it in most of his posts, we all do it here from time to time.

She admitted she was generalizing based on the 60 minutes and news paper reports. But the fact remains there was Billions of dollars in tithe payer money in shell accounts with phony managers. Can you admit that?

Start at 7:00 minutes...

I listened to it starting right before the 7 minute mark. The dude being interviewed did all that he could to keep from giving a direct answer to the interviewer.

And then there is the difference between "secretive" and "confidential." A meaning without any difference....

 

[Bonnie]

Let's separate truth from fiction here.

There might have been some members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints which started some policies regarding baseball and church attendance, in some areas--but there isn't any specific evidence which shows it was a policy of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In fact--when the leader of that area found out about it--he stopped any forward movement of that individual policy.

There will always be some within any organization which start policies without the approval of the organization, as a whole.

- Mormons are required to earn each blessing:

In case one hasn't caught on to it--faith alone theology preaches salvation through a faith without works. Could you explain why faith alone adherents would not object to walking in the light as being a condition to the Blood of Christ? 1 John 1:7---King James Version 7 But if we walk in the...

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