Are Messianics trinitarian?

[American Gothic]

You're even being dishonest in your posting of scripture.

I think I'm quoting from the NKJV (where I firstly will try to go)

33 The Jews answered him, saying, `For a good work we do not stone thee, but for evil speaking, and because thou, being a man, dost make thyself God.'

the Jewish leaders saying He is equating Himself with God
the NT claim is that He is God incarnate

if they, doing the work of God, can be called "gods"
then certainly He, as the promised Messianic person, can be called God's Son
I think is His point below

34 Jesus answered them, `Is it not having been written in your law: I said, ye are gods?
35 if them he did call gods unto whom the word of God came, (and the Writing is not able to be broken,)
36 of him whom the Father did sanctify, and send to the world, do ye say -- Thou speakest evil, because I said, Son of God I am?
37 if I do not the works of my Father, do not believe me;
38 and if I do, even if me ye may not believe, the works believe, that ye may know and may believe that in me [is] the Father, and I in Him.'

there is the Father
the Son proceeds from the Father
the Spirit proceeds from the Father and Son
this has been the Godhead situation Eternally IMO

 

[American Gothic]

I asked Ariel about their own wording vs. the other Messianic orgs
and this was Their response -


"The Doctrinal Statement of Ariel Ministries’ in a section entitled “The God-Head”, states:
'We believe there is one God eternally existing in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; that all three possess equally all the same attributes, nature, perfections, and characteristics of personality.'


One of the important phrases here is “eternally existing”, which would not be a modalistic way of expressing the Trinity. This expression indicates that the Father is always the Father-person, the Son always the Son-person, and the Spirit is always the Spirit-person. All are equally and eternally God, yet each having a unique identity.


It may be that some Messianic Jewish organizations seem to “soften” the statement of Trinitarian belief in order to be not so offensive to those who hold traditional or orthodox Jewish beliefs of the Unity of God. Ariel Ministries, while not desiring to be offensive, at the same time wants to be clear that our belief is avowedly Trinitarian, a position we believe is thoroughly biblical."

 

[American Gothic]

you've asked where this God/Godhead trinitarian view comes from
and simply, it's derived from the whole Bible

you really need to explain yr point of view
about the verses or passages you are referencing

 

[SPOKENWORD]

LOL. Can you please show in the text where the alleged voice from heaven is recorded as saying, “This is God the Son…”. I think you added what is not there. Nobody denies God has a Son. But it is not proven the Son is equal to God, especially after the text has Jesus explicitly deny that he is equal to God.

John 1​

The Word Became Flesh​

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Hope this helps to confirms that Jesus is the Son of God.

 

[docphin5]

John 1​

The Word Became Flesh​

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Hope this helps to confirms that Jesus is the Son of God.

Right, God has a Son. Again, nobody is denying that. But the Son denies being equal to his Father. There are not three equal gods or two other gods equal to the Father. According to the ORIGINAL Jewish christians, there is one God, the Most High, and his two powers. The two powers combined is the first heavenly Man. It may seem like splitting hairs but there is a distinction.

 

[BMS]

Right, God has a Son. Again, nobody is denying that. But the Son denies being equal to his Father.

not in the Bible Jesus
Who or what gave you that idea?

 

[docphin5]

not in the Bible Jesus
Who or what gave you that idea?

John 14:28. “The Father is greater than I” for starters. Then there is the Dead Sea Scrolls describing the historical Teacher of Righteousness, aka, Yeshua who was fully human and was considered the leader of the Jewish-Christians. If you guys would bother to step outside your bubble there is a lot of relevant information from archaeology and history about who the historical Jesus actually was.

 

[American Gothic]

"You have placed the angel of your piece in His congregation and
given Him laws of righteousness as a father does for his son.
He loves You and Your spirit.
Through them you establish Your glory."
- testament of Enos, grandson of Adam
Dead Sea Scroll 4Q369

the Son/Messiah is a divine Person and loves both His Father and the Spirit
a "power" does not love - a person does

"If you guys would bother to..."
LOLZ

 

[Nic]

Right, God has a Son. Again, nobody is denying that. But the Son denies being equal to his Father. There are not three equal gods or two other gods equal to the Father. According to the ORIGINAL Jewish christians, there is one God, the Most High, and his two powers. The two powers combined is the first heavenly Man. It may seem like splitting hairs but there is a distinction.

A hierarchy does exist within Trinitarian doctrine.

 

[docphin5]

A hierarchy does exist within Trinitarian doctrine.

Then the subordinates, presumably, the Son and Spirit, are not equal to their boss. I have never worked in a hierarchy where the lesser claimed equality with his boss. The very nature of hierarchy precludes equality. Therefore, one is speaking out both sides of the mouth to claim that they are all equal but then turn around and say that their exists a hierarchy. It is like trying to keep your cake and eat it too. It does not work.

Again, all you have to do is go to the Dead Sea Scrolls to see how the original Jewish-christians described it. The two powers come from the Most High but they are not equal to him.

 

[docphin5]

"You have placed the angel of your piece in His congregation and
given Him laws of righteousness as a father does for his son.
He loves You and Your spirit.
Through them you establish Your glory."
- testament of Enos, grandson of Adam
Dead Sea Scroll 4Q369

the Son/Messiah is a divine Person and loves both His Father and the Spirit
a "power" does not love - a person does

"If you guys would bother to..."
LOLZ

Since you never explain anything, how is anyone to know what you are saying? You just quote some obscure text and proclaim victory. Since I don’t plan on explaining your position for you, then we all observe your posts pass by like a cloud in the sky. Oh, look AG posted something.

 

[Rachel Redux]

you've asked where this God/Godhead trinitarian view comes from
and simply, it's derived from the whole Bible

you really need to explain yr point of view
about the verses or passages you are referencing

I have explained my pov several times.
I go to the words of Jesus and I believe what he says.
Jesus said over and over "the Father is in me and I am in the Father." Then he prayed for his flock to join in that unity.
What's so hard to understand?

 

[American Gothic]

"the Father is in me, and I am in the Father"
which means What to you?
who knows what yr view of God is (?), because you never say or explain what it is

it's a passage about His works, and it insists that it should be obvious to all that witnessed them that they were works of God

-

the entire Bible is essentially the words of Jesus and all about Him
its words were inspired by the Spirit, Who is sent by the Father and the Son

"For in (Jesus/the Messiah) dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." Colossians 2
there's a Godhead verse - about the fullness of God being expressed in Him
but it's Paul so you will ignore it

 

[American Gothic]

"...and you are complete in Him, (Jesus/the Messiah)
who is the head of all principality and power" (ie. God, no less so than the Father)

personality wise, is He the Father?
no -
God is three persons

one person God is a (understandably in OT times for most people)
childish view of God
if the Israelites had approached when asked to, they would have seen and been talked to face to faces by God the Son
they refused, and still refuse Him to this day as Messiah and God, by wanting Moses (actually heretical Rabbis instead) to be
their intermediary teacher - to their own loss

those in Jesus have the entirety of scriptural revelation and should know better

 

[Rachel Redux]

...

 

[Rachel Redux]

"the Father is in me, and I am in the Father"
which means What to you?
who knows what yr view of God is (?), because you never say or explain what it is

it's a passage about His works, and it insists that it should be obvious to all that witnessed them that they were works of God

-


the entire Bible is essentially the words of Jesus and all about Him
its words were inspired by the Spirit, Who is sent by the Father and the Son

"For in (Jesus/the Messiah) dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." Colossians 2
there's a Godhead verse - about the fullness of God being expressed in Him
but it's Paul so you will ignore it

"the Father is in me, and I am in the Father"
which means What to you?
who knows what yr view of God is (?), because you never say or explain what it is

it's a passage about His works, and it insists that it should be obvious to all that witnessed them that they were works of God

-

the entire Bible is essentially the words of Jesus and all about Him
its words were inspired by the Spirit, Who is sent by the Father and the Son

"For in (Jesus/the Messiah) dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." Colossians 2
there's a Godhead verse - about the fullness of God being expressed in Him
but it's Paul so you will ignore it

One verse....
One verse that's contrary to all the verses that explain his nature and his relationship to the Father.

 

[Rachel Redux]

"...and you are complete in Him, (Jesus/the Messiah)
who is the head of all principality and power" (ie. God, no less so than the Father)

personality wise, is He the Father?
no -
God is three persons

one person God is a (understandably in OT times for most people)
childish view of God
if the Israelites had approached when asked to, they would have seen and been talked to face to faces by God the Son
they refused, and still refuse Him to this day as Messiah and God, by wanting Moses (actually heretical Rabbis instead) to be
their intermediary teacher - to their own loss

those in Jesus have the entirety of scriptural revelation and should know better

You know what's childish?
You and your rude posts.
Have a nice rest of your life.

 

[Open Heart]

I always thought Messianics were not Trinitarian.
I'm Church of God 7th Day (which is not Trinitarian) and I've posted on "another" popular forum for years.
Weeel...a couple of weeks, or so, I posted over there and mentioned that I was not Trinitarian and they banned me! Lol...if I wanted to stay, I would have to say I was "non-traditional" Trinitarian.

UMJC does believe that Jesus is God. Here is what their website says:
"There is one God, who has revealed Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. "

Statement of Faith — Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations

www.umjc.org

From my personal conversations with Stuart Dauermann, this does not mean they are strictly Nicene. Stuart promoted the idea the MJ was essentially first century Jerusalem Christianity. In other words PRE-Nicene. He had no problem with the gentile churches being Nicene; he simply didn't feel that those council decisions effected MJ.

The other MJ denomination is MJAA. It is firmly trinitarian. From its website:
" He is a personal God who created us (Genesis 1 & 2), and that He exists forever in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit,"

Statement of Faith - Messianic Jewish Alliance of America

mjaa.org

It is worth mentioning that while both of the MJ denominations are officially trinitarian, there were in fact individual Jewish members who did not agree. I recall listening to the discussions on this subject, and how there were those who absolutely believed that ascribing godhood to Jesus was pagan idolatry.

Of course, there are the occasional independent MJ congregations who are affiliated with neither denomination. There is no way to check on them.

As to Hebrew Roots congregations which are similar to MJ, I simply don't know how they stand on this issue.

 

[Rachel Redux]

UMJC does believe that Jesus is God. Here is what their website says:
"There is one God, who has revealed Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. "

Statement of Faith — Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations

www.umjc.org

From my personal conversations with Stuart Dauermann, this does not mean they are strictly Nicene. Stuart promoted the idea the MJ was essentially first century Jerusalem Christianity. In other words PRE-Nicene. He had no problem with the gentile churches being Nicene; he simply didn't feel that those council decisions effected MJ.

The other MJ denomination is MJAA. It is firmly trinitarian. From its website:
" He is a personal God who created us (Genesis 1 & 2), and that He exists forever in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit,"

Statement of Faith - Messianic Jewish Alliance of America

mjaa.org

It is worth mentioning that while both of the MJ denominations are officially trinitarian, there were in fact individual Jewish members who did not agree. I recall listening to the discussions on this subject, and how there were those who absolutely believed that ascribing godhood to Jesus was pagan idolatry.

Of course, there are the occasional independent MJ congregations who are affiliated with neither denomination. There is no way to check on them.

As to Hebrew Roots congregations which are similar to MJ, I simply don't know how they stand on this issue.

Hi OH. Thank you for the information.

I find the doctrine of the Trinity to be a very difficult concept but I do believe it to be a doctrine created by the Council of Nicaea.

If I had to describe my beliefs on the subject, they are probably a blend of the UMJC and Church of God 7th Day, which is explained below:

Does the Church of God (7th Day) believe in the Trinity?

We believe in one true God who is the creator of all. He is omnipotent, omnicient, and omnipresent. He sent his son to Earth to be a sacrifice for our sins. He is a separate being from his son, Jesus. The Holy Spirit is the power of God and not a separate being with a separate consciousness.

We do not believe in the teaching of the Trinity, in which the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three parts of a single being who is God. We believe the Father and the Son are separate beings with separate consciousnesses and that the Holy Spirit is not a conscious being but instead the power of God.

 

[American Gothic]

I knew when this thread morphed from Trinitarianism in Messianic Judaism
to a discussion of God's nature itself that some would end up butthurt
even tho they insult those explaining it in the Bible - which they disagree with

the first sign of error is usually what is thought or taught about Messiah Jesus
and usually involves insisting He is less God than the Father, and angel sent from God,
is a phantom not man, is not God just a man, etc.

the Gnostic schools had these sorts of teachings
and the errors of those cults still persist in false religious culture to this day

some MJ groups using singular language to not offend seems similar
to teachings of some Apostles in the NT to Jews that would be offended by certain
things about the New situation under New covenant
I've said that they appear to be tailoring their message to that audience a bit
also, those groups seem to appeal to some gentiles who think there is something to be gained by trying to be Jewish

the Bible is clear on what a physical Jew is, and NT then explains what a truly spiritual Jew is (and a spiritual gentile as well)
another poster also brought up children
it's the type of relationship to God person the Mosaic law was instruction for