Are Messianics trinitarian?

[David1701]

So Dave...how does your scripture teach the trinity that is taught in Evangelistic churches?
If you want to understand our relationship with God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, study John 17.
Yes, Jesus was with God from the beginning.
Don't cast stones, friend...especially when you don't know what you're talking about.

I certainly do know what I'm talking about; and I know John 17 well, thanks.

I was simply agreeing with Jesus, when he said that anyone who does not believe that he is the I AM (i.e. God) of the OT, will die in his sins.

God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, as the Bible tells us - three Persons in the one God. We don't need to understand exactly how that works (in fact, being mere humans, we can't) but we do need to believe it.

 

[docphin5]

I certainly do know what I'm talking about; and I know John 17 well, thanks.

I was simply agreeing with Jesus, when he said that anyone who does not believe that he is the I AM (i.e. God) of the OT, will die in his sins.

God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, as the Bible tells us - three Persons in the one God. We don't need to understand exactly how that works (in fact, being mere humans, we can't) but we do need to believe it.

The “I Am” is Son of God. Jesus = YHWH = son of God. The early christians knew this. Look it up! Isaiah wrote “YHWH becomes Salvation=Yesuati=Jesus”. In fact, Yeshua’s name means YHWH became salvation. The only distinction between Yeshua and YHWH is that Wisdom anoints YHWH in Yeshua. Hence, his title, the anointed Yeshua, aka, Jesus Christ.

 

[Nic]

The “I Am” is Son of God. Jesus = YHWH = son of God. The early christians knew this. Look it up! Isaiah wrote “YHWH becomes Salvation=Yesuati=Jesus”. In fact, Yeshua’s name means YHWH became salvation. The only distinction between Yeshua and YHWH is that Wisdom anoints YHWH in Yeshua. Hence, his title, the anointed Yeshua, aka, Jesus Christ.

Jesus was anointed in his baptism as I understand things. (My two cents)

 

[Nic]

I always thought Messianics were not Trinitarian.
I'm Church of God 7th Day (which is not Trinitarian) and I've posted on "another" popular forum for years.
Weeel...a couple of weeks, or so, I posted over there and mentioned that I was not Trinitarian and they banned me! Lol...if I wanted to stay, I would have to say I was "non-traditional" Trinitarian.

My personal best guess; I'd say they're a mixed bag. Aren't most of them gentiles as well?

 

[David1701]

The “I Am” is Son of God. Jesus = YHWH = son of God. The early christians knew this. Look it up! Isaiah wrote “YHWH becomes Salvation=Yesuati=Jesus”. In fact, Yeshua’s name means YHWH became salvation. The only distinction between Yeshua and YHWH is that Wisdom anoints YHWH in Yeshua. Hence, his title, the anointed Yeshua, aka, Jesus Christ.

What is your point?

 

[Rachel Redux]

I certainly do know what I'm talking about; and I know John 17 well, thanks.

I was simply agreeing with Jesus, when he said that anyone who does not believe that he is the I AM (i.e. God) of the OT, will die in his sins.

God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, as the Bible tells us - three Persons in the one God. We don't need to understand exactly how that works (in fact, being mere humans, we can't) but we do need to believe it.

Quote the particular scripture for me that says "God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, as the Bible tells us - three Persons in the one God."

Also I strongly recommend that you read John 8: 23, 24 again in a good literal translation.

 

[David1701]

Quote the particular scripture for me that says "God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, as the Bible tells us - three Persons in the one God."

The Bible is not a primer for schoolchildren. You have to dig a bit, comparing Scripture with Scripture, to arrive at a reasonably full understanding of the Bible's revelation about the Godhead.

1 John 5:7 (KJ3) For three are the ones bearing witness: in Heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

If you piece together the many places that show that the Father, the Son/Word and the Holy Spirit are God, along with the places that say that there is only one God, the conclusion is inescapable.

Also I strongly recommend that you read John 8: 23, 24 again in a good literal translation.

I have read it in several good, literal translations. Here's another very good, literal translation.

John 8:23,24 (KJ3)
23 And He said to them, You are from below; I am from above. You are from this world; I am not from this world.
24 Therefore, I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.

Many translations add "he", after "I AM", but there is no "he" in the Greek here, so a literal translation does not have it.

 

[Rachel Redux]

The Bible is not a primer for schoolchildren. You have to dig a bit, comparing Scripture with Scripture, to arrive at a reasonably full understanding of the Bible's revelation about the Godhead.

1 John 5:7 (KJ3) For three are the ones bearing witness: in Heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

If you piece together the many places that show that the Father, the Son/Word and the Holy Spirit are God, along with the places that say that there is only one God, the conclusion is inescapable.


I have read it in several good, literal translations. Here's another very good, literal translation.

John 8:23,24 (KJ3)
23 And He said to them, You are from below; I am from above. You are from this world; I am not from this world.
24 Therefore, I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.

Many translations add "he", after "I AM", but there is no "he" in the Greek here, so a literal translation does not have it.

Okay, well you keep digging around for the understanding you prefer.

 

[Nic]

The Bible is not a primer for schoolchildren. You have to dig a bit, comparing Scripture with Scripture, to arrive at a reasonably full understanding of the Bible's revelation about the Godhead.

1 John 5:7 (KJ3) For three are the ones bearing witness: in Heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

If you piece together the many places that show that the Father, the Son/Word and the Holy Spirit are God, along with the places that say that there is only one God, the conclusion is inescapable.


I have read it in several good, literal translations. Here's another very good, literal translation.

John 8:23,24 (KJ3)
23 And He said to them, You are from below; I am from above. You are from this world; I am not from this world.
24 Therefore, I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.

Many translations add "he", after "I AM", but there is no "he" in the Greek here, so a literal translation does not have it.

Hi David, I'll add one other thought off the top of my head and that is, God is referenced as a thrice holy God as well. I'm not sure who you may endorse for a Trinitarian primer or more, but I understand Dr. James R. White (Reformed Baptist) authored a book on the topic years ago, that was well received within the Reformed community stateside. But you may well already know this and if so, I apologize. ?

 

[docphin5]

What is your point?

YHWH-Elohim is the Son of God according to the royal cult of Judaism going back to the tenth century BC. The authors of the New Testament held the same view, they submitted to the Most High and YHWH was his Son. They attributed the words of Jesus from that of YHWH-Elohim for a reason, because they were considered equivalent. The difference between them is that Jesus submits to his Father and YHWH does not which is why Jesus is glorified with the name above all names. You guys are so far behind the curve. You need to be reading the history of ancient Israel especially the two hundred years BC when judaism began transitioning to christianity.

There is only one God, the Most High, one Spirit from God, and one body from God, namely, YHWH. YHWH’s name means “to exist” making him the power of being or matter in whom we all live. But matter is in a suffering state for sin. For separating from God’s wisdom. The purpose of spirit is to return us to the Most High and true God. The spirit chose jesus to lead them all back to the Father.

 

[David1701]

Okay, well you keep digging around for the understanding you prefer.

You keep your head in the sand and pretend that's what I'm doing. No, on second thoughts, do what's good for you: become objective and seek the truth, instead of hand-waving facts away.

 

[David1701]

YHWH-Elohim is the Son of God according to the royal cult of Judaism going back to the tenth century BC. The authors of the New Testament held the same view, they submitted to the Most High and YHWH was his Son. They attributed the words of Jesus from that of YHWH-Elohim for a reason, because they were considered equivalent. The difference between them is that Jesus submits to his Father and YHWH does not which is why Jesus is glorified with the name above all names. You guys are so far behind the curve. You need to be reading the history of ancient Israel especially the two hundred years BC when judaism began transitioning to christianity.

There is only one God, the Most High, one Spirit from God, and one body from God, namely, YHWH. YHWH’s name means “to exist” making him the power of being or matter in whom we all live. But matter is in a suffering state for sin. For separating from God’s wisdom. The purpose of spirit is to return us to the Most High and true God. The spirit chose jesus to lead them all back to the Father.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

It's a very difficult subject to discuss. I may not understand it perfectly but I just don't think the mainstream explanation is correct.
I believe in the divinity of Jesus but I can't go with the doctrine of Trinity as it is usually taught.

The confirmation of the Trinity is here. Matthew 3:16
16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
God the Father(voice from heaven),God the Son, (Jesus ) God the Holy Spirit.(Spirit of God) I think its well described here and its confirmation.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

The confirmation of the Trinity is here. Matthew 3:16
16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
God the Father(voice from heaven),God the Son, (Jesus ) God the Holy Spirit.(Spirit of God) I think its well described here and its confirmation.

 

[docphin5]

The confirmation of the Trinity is here. Matthew 3:16
16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
God the Father(voice from heaven),God the Son, (Jesus ) God the Holy Spirit.(Spirit of God) I think its well described here and its confirmation.

LOL. Can you please show in the text where the alleged voice from heaven is recorded as saying, “This is God the Son…”. I think you added what is not there. Nobody denies God has a Son. But it is not proven the Son is equal to God, especially after the text has Jesus explicitly deny that he is equal to God.

 

[American Gothic]

CARM needs a Gnosticism/Paganism forum
and
to stop non-Christians from SPAMing Christian forums and insulting Christians

 

[docphin5]

CARM needs a Gnosticism/Paganism forum
and
to stop non-Christians from SPAMing Christian forums and insulting Christians

How about we just present evidence and facts from scholarly works, archaeology, and history involving the historical origins of Jewish-christianity in a rational way? If you do not like discussing facts and history in a rational way then feel free to ignore my posts.

 

[American Gothic]

How about we just present evidence and facts from scholarly works, archaeology, and history involving the historical origins of Jewish-christianity in a rational way? If you do not like discussing facts and history in a rational way then feel free to ignore my posts.

none of that is the gist of this thread
and Gnosticism isn't theologically in line with this forum or Jewish Messianism, Essenes/Qumran/DSS, or even Rabbinic Judaism
that was shown by the earliest Chruch fathers long ago

you should ask CARM to start a new forum
where pagans and Christians and others can talk about tattooing, lip piercings, Stonehenge, Nag Hamadi, the Aeons and stuff

you've said and shown repeatedly you don't believe the Bible

 

[docphin5]

none of that is the gist of this thread
and Gnosticism isn't theologically in line with this forum or Jewish Messianism, Essenes/Qumran/DSS, or even Rabbinic Judaism

you should ask CARM to start a new forum
where pagans and Christians and others can talk about tattooing, lip piercings, Stonehenge, Nag Hamadi, the Aeons and stuff

you've said repeatedly you don't believe the Bible

Why do you keep posting to me if you do not want to discuss history, facts, and evidence about the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Onias family of high priests, the Book of sirach, second temple Jewish customs and beliefs? <<< these are all relevant to Jewish-christianity. You have an ignore button at your disposal, please try it.

 

[Rachel Redux]

to love Him don't we have to completely believe Him?

"...believe on the Lord Jesus Christ blah blah"
"If you love me, keep My commandments.."
"I and my Father are one"
""We are not stoning You for any good work," said the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because You, who are a man, declare Yourself to be God."

You're even being dishonest in your posting of scripture.

John 10:33-38 Young's Literal

33 The Jews answered him, saying, `For a good work we do not stone thee, but for evil speaking, and because thou, being a man, dost make thyself God.'

34 Jesus answered them, `Is it not having been written in your law: I said, ye are gods?

35 if them he did call gods unto whom the word of God came, (and the Writing is not able to be broken,)

36 of him whom the Father did sanctify, and send to the world, do ye say -- Thou speakest evil, because I said, Son of God I am?

37 if I do not the works of my Father, do not believe me;

38 and if I do, even if me ye may not believe, the works believe, that ye may know and may believe that in me [is] the Father, and I in Him.'