Are Messianics trinitarian?

American Gothic said:
I knew when this thread morphed from Trinitarianism in Messianic Judaism
to a discussion of God's nature itself that some would end up butthurt
even tho they insult those explaining it in the Bible - which they disagree with

the first sign of error is usually what is thought or taught about Messiah Jesus
and usually involves insisting He is less God than the Father, and angel sent from God,
is a phantom not man, is not God just a man, etc.

the Gnostic schools had these sorts of teachings
and the errors of those cults still persist in false religious culture to this day

some MJ groups using singular language to not offend seems similar
to teachings of some Apostles in the NT to Jews that would be offended by certain
things about the New situation under New covenant
I've said that they appear to be tailoring their message to that audience a bit
also, those groups seem to appeal to some gentiles who think there is something to be gained by trying to be Jewish

the Bible is clear on what a physical Jew is, and NT then explains what a truly spiritual Jew is (and a spiritual gentile as well)
another poster also brought up children
it's the type of relationship to God person the Mosaic law was instruction for
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Yawn....
 
Rachel Redux said:
Hi OH. Thank you for the information.

I find the doctrine of the Trinity to be a very difficult concept but I do believe it to be a doctrine created by the Council of Nicaea.

If I had to describe my beliefs on the subject, they are probably a blend of the UMJC and Church of God 7th Day, which is explained below:

Does the Church of God (7th Day) believe in the Trinity?

We believe in one true God who is the creator of all. He is omnipotent, omnicient, and omnipresent. He sent his son to Earth to be a sacrifice for our sins. He is a separate being from his son, Jesus. The Holy Spirit is the power of God and not a separate being with a separate consciousness.

We do not believe in the teaching of the Trinity, in which the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three parts of a single being who is God. We believe the Father and the Son are separate beings with separate consciousnesses and that the Holy Spirit is not a conscious being but instead the power of God.
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Hi Rachel. Always good to hear from you. :)

I understand your difficulty with Nicene Trinitarianism. Do you mind if I ask a question or two so that I can better understand your position? I'm not here to argue you out of any belief. I'm just curious how you handle certain problems.

So you have quoted the position of the Church of God (7th day). It states that Jesus is a separate being than the Father. Do you believe that Jesus is a deity? And if so, would that not mean that you believe in two gods?

The whole reason behind the debates at the Council of Nicea concerned the obvious problem that if Jesus is deity, and is also separate from the Father, you end up with polytheism. which is paganism and utterly contrary to the Shema and other verses in the Tanakh. Trinitarianism is the attempt to deal with this problem. So I guess what I'm asking is how do you personally solve this problem?
 
Open Heart said:
Hi Rachel. Always good to hear from you. :)

I understand your difficulty with Nicene Trinitarianism. Do you mind if I ask a question or two so that I can better understand your position? I'm not here to argue you out of any belief. I'm just curious how you handle certain problems.

So you have quoted the position of the Church of God (7th day). It states that Jesus is a separate being than the Father. Do you believe that Jesus is a deity? And if so, would that not mean that you believe in two gods?
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I think we recently had this discussion.
Yes, I believe that Jesus is deity.
I believe it because Jehovah called Jesus his son and Jesus said he pre-existed and was returning to his Father. That doesn't equal polytheistism in my book.

The whole reason behind the debates at the Council of Nicea concerned the obvious problem that if Jesus is deity, and is also separate from the Father, you end up with polytheism. which is paganism and utterly contrary to the Shema and other verses in the Tanakh. Trinitarianism is the attempt to deal with this problem. So I guess what I'm asking is how do you personally solve this problem?
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Jesus is in unity with his Father...they're one. I don't find that this contradicts the Shema.
 
if yr Elohim/Adoni are Echad
then its a singular that is plural
there is only one God, and no other is like (capital G)od

we don't truck with falsehood and heresies 'round here yo
grrrr
 
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Rachel Redux said:
Yes, I believe that Jesus is deity.
I believe it because Jehovah called Jesus his son and Jesus said he pre-existed and was returning to his Father. That doesn't equal polytheistism in my book.
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Again, just trying to understand your position. If the Father is deity, and Jesus is deity, and they are not the same entity, then don't you have two deities?
 
Open Heart said:
Again, just trying to understand your position. If the Father is deity, and Jesus is deity, and they are not the same entity, then don't you have two deities?
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Yes, you have two dieties. Only one is Almighty God...the Father that Jesus prayed to.
 
Open Heart said:
Again, just trying to understand your position. If the Father is deity, and Jesus is deity, and they are not the same entity, then don't you have two deities?
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Look, OH. You believe what you believe and I believe what I believe, which I've explained pretty thoroughly.
You don't even believe Jesus is anything but some delusional man whe died and that was the end, so why bother? You're trying to play semantics with me again. I don't want to play.
 
Rachel Redux said:
Look, OH. You believe what you believe and I believe what I believe, which I've explained pretty thoroughly.
You don't even believe Jesus is anything but some delusional man whe died and that was the end, so why bother? You're trying to play semantics with me again. I don't want to play.
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You have misunderstood my intent. I'm not trying to talk you into my beliefs. I'm trying to clarify yours. However, if it is irritating you, we can certainly drop it. I think that's what happened last time as well, when I was inquiring into your beliefs, and it bugged you, and you never really answered. That's okay, you have no obligation to answer. But you are leaving me in a position where I really do not understand what you believe. You may believe you have addressed my questions, but in reality you have not. I really honestly and truly do not know if you are monotheistic or polytheistic.
 
Open Heart said:
You have misunderstood my intent. I'm not trying to talk you into my beliefs. I'm trying to clarify yours. However, if it is irritating you, we can certainly drop it. I think that's what happened last time as well, when I was inquiring into your beliefs, and it bugged you, and you never really answered. That's okay, you have no obligation to answer. But you are leaving me in a position where I really do not understand what you believe. You may believe you have addressed my questions, but in reality you have not. I really honestly and truly do not know if you are monotheistic or polytheistic.
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OH, I gave you crystal clear information on my beliefs. Go back to post #79 and read it again.
What irritates me is to be asked the same question over and over when I've already answered it.
Yes, Jesus is deity.
No, he is not Jehovah in a man suit.
He is the son of God and yes, he pre-existed and had a glorified position with the Father before the world existed.
I can't give you answers that the Bible doesn't provide.
You've been all over the map with your doctrine. I'm sure you understand what I mean when I say Jesus is elohim.
I am not a polytheist.
You may not be trying to convert me, but you want to tell me I'm wrong and you're right.
 
Open Heart said:
And a deity is the same thing as a god? Correct? So you are saying there are two gods?
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The angels are sometimes referred to as “sons of El”, who possess the divine attributes of their Father, without taking anything from the Supreme God over all.

Therefore, the idea of “sons of God” or angels, is not prejudicial to monotheism. There can be a “God of gods” in monotheism. There is a case to be made that YHWH was originally held to be the Great Angel or son of El going back to the tenth century BC. In this case monotheism still holds because there remains a source of all things who is known by many names, to include, Most High, First Life, God of knowledge, King of Light, etc.

The original Jewish-christians believed in the existence of a world of light prior to our own cosmos. The Most High reigned there over all the angels. Some angels rebelled and were sent to a lower material world to live out their lives in punishment. Which is why our material world suffers and dies for sin. Human souls are pieces or parts of the kingdom of light trapped here in darkness. The spirit of the Most High tries to awaken the souls of men to the kingdom of light so that they may return to the King of Light. YHWH was the great angel sent from (or fell from) heaven to rule over the material world. YHWH is a Son of El.

The idea of angels as sons of El can be demonstrated from the Hebrew Bible. See Barker, “The Great Angel”.
 
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Rachel Redux said:
OH, I gave you crystal clear information on my beliefs. Go back to post #79 and read it again.
What irritates me is to be asked the same question over and over when I've already answered it.
Yes, Jesus is deity.
No, he is not Jehovah in a man suit.
He is the son of God and yes, he pre-existed and had a glorified position with the Father before the world existed.
I can't give you answers that the Bible doesn't provide.
You've been all over the map with your doctrine. I'm sure you understand what I mean when I say Jesus is elohim.
I am not a polytheist.
You may not be trying to convert me, but you want to tell me I'm wrong and you're right.
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No, I'm simply struggling with your inconsistencies. For example, you will say that Jesus and teh Father are both deities but not the same being, but then you turn around and say you are not polytheistic. So I really don't know what to think you believe. And no, this has nothing to do with whether you are right or wrong. My sole purpose in this discussion was simply to try to determine whether you are monotheist or polytheist. It is apparent I will never know, because you are too touchy about discussing it. I won't pursue this further. Be well.
 
docphin5 said:
The angels are sometimes referred to as “sons of El”,
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And the People of Israel are referred to as God's firstborn son. It doesn't make it literal. These familial metaphors simply indicate a closeness. God does not give birth to little baby gods.
 
Open Heart said:
And the People of Israel are referred to as God's firstborn son. It doesn't make it literal. These familial metaphors simply indicate a closeness. God does not give birth to little baby gods.
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Exactly. Scripture instructing us about our familial connection to the Source of everything. If YHWH was once the celestial Man or Adam of light who subsequently formed humans in a material world then we have a connection to God and to heaven however distant it may seem at times. Even the terms, Father (as God), or Son of God are metaphors anthropomorphizing abstract ideas about our connection to heavenly things. Virtuous souls whether angels or human are part of the family of God. How that happens is a matter of debate. I know you do not care for Paul but he taught every family on earth and heaven came ultimately from the Most High so It is not just my opinion.

I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, (Eph. 3:15)
 
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